Bigotry against Mormons apparently acceptable in Utah LDS (OPEN)

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | March 20, 2009

[greyfoxx39]

Here is the response of a Utahn commenting on a Salt Lake Tribune online blog concerning HBO's attempt in its series "Big Love" to increase its revenues by publicly insulting the religious sensitivity of a minority religion: "Anything that gets the LDS "church's magical Mormon underwear in a twist is all right with me!!"

I write for a regional newspaper in Iowa. During the last election campaign, I suggested that Mitt Romney lost the Iowa caucus to Mike Huckabee primarily due to anti-Mormon bigotry. A reader argued that my opinion had no credence because I was a lay leader in the LDS Church.

The writer was either suggesting that I knew exactly what I was talking about and was therefore credible, or that I shouldn't be believed because I was a Mormon, which implies that the writer was a bigot.

-SNIP-

It is obvious to an outsider that Utah, or at least Salt Lake City, has within itself a deeply held culture of bigotry. A bigotry so ingrained in the cultural norm that the readers posting comments to the newspaper's blogs, apparently believing they are freethinking and ironic, are saying things online that would never be allowed into print if written about other groups.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

 

A Straw Man is a classic logical fallacy where a person manufactures a caricature (usually a misinterpretation or oversimplification) of his opponent's argument, and then sets out to attack or dismiss the exaggeration. i.e. Building a straw man and then knocking it down. This is a very dishonest line of argument, since a person puts words into his opponent's mouth then ridicules them.

[Stourme]

aMorePerfectUnion accuses me of this in one post..

[aMorePerfectUnion]
This is a very dishonest line of argument, since a person puts words into his opponent's mouth then ridicules them.

Just after putting words in my mouth one post before..

[aMorePerfectUnion]
it certainly is a way to try to draw attention away from your claim that Joseph Smith died as a martyr,

I've never said any such thing on this thread...

Matthew 7:5
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

[reaganaut]

Acts 8:17 - 20
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

As you can clearly see....well...at least I can. That the power of God can be used by men whom God has authorized to do so.

---

Nope. Wrong again. He was rebuked because he was TRYING TO BUY THE POWER!!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

YOU: Proclaiming yourself saved is blasphemy. It is supreme arrogance.

---

No, I am saved because I believe, and I shall endure to the end.

The supreme arrogance is that the LDS think that all their good works will get them to godhood. They mock God by thinking they can be like Him. Supreme arrogance is that they claim to be High Priests when CHRIST IS THE ONLY HIGH PRIEST, and the LDS usurp his position.

[reaganaut]

ping to above post.

[Stourme]

And stop linking graphics with out permission...

[reaganaut]

Amen.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Stourme,
I guess I assumed from your post that you
were arguing that Smith died as a martyr.
In checking back, you only said he died
at the hands of a mob.

If you do not believe he died a martyr,
I was wrong and I apologize.

OR,

Maybe you realize the guy died as a
criminal. If so, I was really wrong.
And I owe you an apology... but

I’ll wait to apologize until I hear back
about that.

The straw man was when you avoided the whole
issue, propped up the evangelical argument as
a diversion, and then argued against it.

ampu

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“And stop linking graphics with out permission...

ah, those freethinkers. They don’t share!

[Stourme]

[reaganaut]
Nope. Wrong again. He was rebuked because he was TRYING TO BUY THE POWER!!!!

mmmkay

Lets try something a little more simple.

Acts 8:18
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

What does Simon see the Apostles doing?
Please use verse 17 as a hint if you need it.

And for extra credit... what power do the Apostles have that Simon is trying to buy?

[MHGinTN]

mmmmkay ... do you seriously believe you or the mortmon religion can manipulate God, manipulate God’s Holy Spirit? ... Simon the magician believe the disciples could manipulate the Holy Spirit, could pass the power to command God onto him ... and they NEVER had such a power just as Joe Smith and not one Mormon ‘apostle’ or ‘president’ has ever or will ever have that power.. Did you miss that reasoning?

[Stourme]

[aMorePerfectUnion]
If you do not believe he died a martyr, I was wrong and I apologize.

What I may or may not believe is irrelevant.
You claimed I said something that I didn't and got caught.

So, I almost thank you for your almost apology.

[reaganaut]

beat me to the response. lol. TY

[reaganaut]

According to your version Judas was saved the moment he accepted Jesus as the Son of God. And as a result, is at this moment enjoying eternal life. Regardless if he betrayed Jesus or not. Because according to you current choices don’t matter, Judas was saved the moment he became a Christian.

---

Who says Judas actually believed? I for one do not think he was really a believer. He followed Jesus around but that does not mean he really believed Jesus was the Son of God. He was a thief, and a liar. Those who truly believe are neither. Like many at the time Judas could have only thought of Jesus as prophet, or like the Zealots, saw him as a political messiah rather than a spiritual one.

There is a huge difference between a “head” knowledge and a “heart” knowledge. The first is not really faith. The second produces a profound change.

I also believe that there are many who call themselves Christians who only have a head knowledge, not a heart one. I also believe that is true of the LDS. I know I only had a head knowledge of Christ growing up. It was after I left the LDS that I came to a heart knowledge of who Jesus Christ is and what He did for me.

Trusting Christ alone, apart from anything we do, is what produces a saving belief in Him. True salvation changes your heart.

[Stourme]

[MHGinTN incorrectly states]
and they NEVER had such a power

The point that I've been making on this thread is that evangelicals ignore 90% of Bible.

Evangelicals throw the scriptures that don't jive with their sensibilities into the EWC (Evangelical Wash Cycle (tm)) and laundry them until they come out as something more palatable.

This subject is a prime example.

MHGinTN, are you going to deny that Moses parted the sea? Are you also going to deny that Moses sent the plagues to force Pharoah to release the Hebrews? Are you going to deny that Moses caused water to spring from a rock? Are you going to deny that the Apostles healed the sick and cast our devils?

Are you still going to deny this Biblical account?
Acts 8:17
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

The fact is that God commissions men to use His power.

For some people though, being in a constant state of hypocrisy and denial is far easier than facing the implications of the truth.

[Stourme]

[MHGinTN]
and they NEVER had such a power

Of course we can't forget this one...

Matthew 10:1
AND when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Wow, I guess God does give His power to man.

[Godzilla]

[Godzilla rudely proclaims] Any related to Jannes and Jambres? Documentation over fluff please.

My, my, my Storm really you should quit that mind reading stuff without a registered peep stone.

Matthew 7:6

Just another way of saying you have no proof.

A prime example of the Evangelical Wash Cycle(tm). Throw that scripture in the wash cycle put it on extra spin and not even the original author would recognize it.

Wow, the invectives are flying tonight LOL. You know, putting scripture tends to do that to mormons, they are unable to present their argument any other way. Nice try at misdirecting and obfuscation Storm. The fact is you took the passage out of its context.

[Godzilla incorrectly states]The Christian has the promise of God that we are saved NOW. . . .

Storm, leaving out the rest of the scriptural support to my statement is a pretty lame method of trying to prove your point.

Romans 10:9-11, 13: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.(Note that there is no reference to waiting until the 'end') For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. …For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

1 Corinthians 15:1-4: “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved… (Notice past tense - 'are') For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”

2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore if any man is in Christ, He is a new creature, old things are passed away; behold all things are become new."

Why are you afraid to address these verses Storm?

According to your version Judas was saved the moment he accepted Jesus as the Son of God. And as a result, is at this moment enjoying eternal life. Regardless if he betrayed Jesus or not. Because according to you current choices don't matter, Judas was saved the moment he became a Christian.

Well, lets examine you scriptural interpretation shall we. How well do you know that Judas made that acceptance? Jesus Himself specifically said that one of the 12 was a devil (John 6:70). Imagine that, Jesus knew Judas hadn't made that commitment, and since Judas didn't make that commitment. Thus your assertion is shown to be falsely interpreted for you failed again to consider the whole of scripture (as you will again in this post). BTW another logical fallacy on your part, they were still under the Jewish law at the time, they weren't called Christians until much later - after the resurrection of Jesus.

However if you apply my reasoning, Judas was picked to be an apostle by Jesus from among His followers. However, Judas failed to "endure to the end" as the Savior taught was necessary for eternal life and will face his actions at the judgment.

Jesus called many, few followed and fewer still stuck it out to the cross. And as said before, Jesus knew he would betray him from the start.

[Stourme correctly states] In the Saviors own words, you have to endure to the end in faith. Then you SHALL be saved. Proclaiming yourself saved is blasphemy. It is supreme arrogance. You have not endured to the end, therefore you can not be saved at this time.
[Godzilla lists several scriptures then says] No future tense used here at all.
This is a very bad strawman. And a truly horrific use of logic.

My, my, my. We see here the fallacy of selective citation. By refusing to address all these other teachings of Jesus on the same subject just shows to all readers the shallowness of the argument. Jesus taught these as well -

Then you better be prepared to hear the Savior's words stormy -

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:47: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

John 10:27-28: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Now Storm, you must reconcile Jesus' teachings here on the same subject. There is absolutely nothing contained in the passages or immediate context, should you bother to look it up, that infers that you must endure to the end. Sorry if that provides discomfort to your sense of reality.

[Godzilla wrongfully states] You cannot know in this life as a mormon if you paid your debt in full.
You are quite wrong.

Storm, you in your very own words said that you don't know if your debt has been paid in full -
I'm guaranteed to have at least a five minute(or so) audience with the Savior. Now whether or not He allows me to stay, that's entirely up to Him. I very much hope so.

You, yourself confirm that you don't know if your debt is paid in full, so you are incorrect to say that I am wrong.

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, THEN is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ.…” —Moroni 10:32

Interesting that you would repeat this verse. Pay close attention to the bolded areas. See the conjunction and as well, it means that both conditions must be fulfilled to meet the condition of grace. You must “deny” yourself of “all ungodliness” before you can receive the saving “grace” of Christ. Is it any wonder Mormonism makes forgiveness conditional upon your ability to repent by abandoning sin? Kimball taught that “Discontinuance of the sin must be permanent....the former transgressor must have reached a ‘point of no return’ to sin wherein there is not merely a renunciation but also a deep abhorrence of the sin — where the sin becomes most distasteful to him and where the desire or urge to sin is cleared out of his life.” ( The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 176, 354-355).
You cannot say that at any minute you are completely without sin (1 John 1: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.).

[Stourme makes a humorous reference to the judgement] I'm guaranteed to have at least a five minute(or so) audience with the Savior.
[Which goes right over Godzilla's head] And where is 5 minutes guaranteed to be found in the bible storm?
Faith in Jesus Christ is only the first step towards eternal life.

Let me repeat the remainder of your statement for clarity - Now whether or not He allows me to stay, that's entirely up to Him. I very much hope so. But as of now, as the scripture correctly points out, I haven't endured to the end yet.. See, you cannot say you are saved in mormonism - it is one BIG may be???? You cannot say your sins are forgiven because you never know if you have done enough works to accomplish it.

“And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven.…Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” —Alma 11:37

“Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? …Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.” — Alma 5:27-28

You cannot be saved by the mormon Jesus if you have any sin in your life - you must obtain perfection in this life. Do you continue to sin? “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”—James 2:10. You then have not denied yourself of ALL UNGODLINESS. According to smith, if you have not achieved perfection by the time you die, you will not obtain eternal life (Alma) Yours is a sad state of life. And what if no one calls you through the veil?

Faith in Jesus Christ is only the first step towards eternal life.

Faith in Jesus is the ONLY step, the rest flow out from that.

Isaiah 64:6: "For we are all as an unclean thing; and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rages..."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Romans 11:6: "And if by grace [unmerited favor or kindness], then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified [declared righteous] by faith without the deeds of the law."

Why are you afraid to address these verses too Storm? Is it because they refute Moroni 10:32 and all the false teachings you have received over the years?

In speaking of the latter days Jesus taught For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.(Mk 13:32). A false Jesus will only bring you a false salvation Storm, read the Bible as a whole like the Bereans did. Accept the real Christ of the Bible, not the other christ's spoken of by Jesus.

[Stourme]

[reaganaut] Who says Judas actually believed? I for one do not think he was really a believer

Well, now that is an interesting twist. So, if I understand you correctly, you're claiming Jesus doesn't have the power to know what's in someone's heart.

Again, if I understand you correctly, when Jesus commanded Judas to go preach, heal the sick, cleans the lepers, and amazingly enough....raise the dead, and cast out devils....Jesus just didn't know He was giving the power over life and death to....a non-believing heathen. According to you, Jesus just didn't know He was being conned.

Matthew 10:7 - 8
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Well..that certainly is creative...

[Godzilla]

ping to 256

[reaganaut]

According to you, Jesus just didn’t know He was being conned.

---

There you go again, putting words in my mouth that I did not say. And so, NO you did not understand me correctly. You are incorrect about this just as you are incorrect about everything related to true Christianity.

Of course Jesus knew his heart. He know all our hearts. He know who will believe and who will not. He knew who was to His command was to all of them. He knew who would and who would not heal, etc. Because in order to do that, you need FAITH in HIM.

But go ahead, keep twisting words, making assumptions and the like for you do not have a leg to stand on.

[Godzilla]

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.