Replies

Okay, getting ready to "ramp up" for some more postings here on this thread... after everyone taking a long break from it.

The subject of the Rapture never gets old, it's never stale, it's been read about in the Bible for almost 2,000 years now, and Christians are expectantly awaiting the return of the Lord, first for His church (to take them home with Him) and then for Him to return back to this earth, to set up the one-world government, in which He rules and reigns over all the nations of the world.

So, we can come back to this time and time again, and it never gets old... :-)

BUT... to make sure that any new poster is "up-to-speed" on the rules for the Rapture Caucus, I post that here again.

In short they say, "post here in this thread if you support the Pre-trib, Mid-trib and/or Pre-wrath Rapture [not Post-trib]. Otherwise, if you don't -- don't post here.

The Religion Moderator's home page ...

Types of threads and guidelines pertaining to the Religion Forum:
[Threads listed are "Prayer", "Devotional", "Caucus" and "Ecumenical"; included here is the "Caucus" definition.]

Caucus threads are closed to any poster who is not a member of the caucus.

For instance, if it says “Catholic Caucus” and you are not Catholic, do not post to the thread. However, if the poster of the caucus invites you, I will not boot you from the thread.
The “caucus” article and posts must not compare beliefs or speak in behalf of a belief outside the caucus.

Caucus threads.

Who can post? Members of the caucus and those specifically invited
What can be posted? Anything but the beliefs of those who are not members of the caucus
What will be pulled? Reply posts mentioning the beliefs of those who are not members of the caucus. If the article is inappropriate for a caucus, the tag will be changed to open.
Who will be booted? Repeat offenders.

Now, back to my own comments...

Some FReepers may have gotten jumped on (in other threads) for posting their belief in the Rapture, from what the Bible says. But -- here -- we're in support of the Rapture.

You are a member of this RAPTURE CAUCUS if you are in support of the Biblical Doctrine of the Rapture, as a separate event from the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (which is to establish the Kingdom on earth). This is defined per Post #78 (the Religion Moderator) and Post #79 (my affirmation of the same), which says we are talking about a Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath Rapture, and not a Post-Trib Rapture (which happens at the same time as the return of Jesus Christ to the earth, i.e., His Second Coming).

Those who await the Rapture, are looking for that "Blessed Hope", Jesus Christ coming in the clouds, for His Bride, the Church.

So, feel free to join in the discussion -- in support of the Rapture -- as we talk about what information you have from the Bible, seminaries, church, pastors, books, friends and so on.

We can discuss the pertinent Bible verses, who are the pastors and/or churches who support it, what books are good to read, what is the purpose of the Rapture, the reason you find some compelling, or whatever else may be enlightening and helpful to the rest of us, in regards to edifying, exhorting and comforting one another, in support of the Biblical Doctrine of the Rapture.

Also, another "given" here is the Inspiration of Scripture from God, an inerrant and infallible Word from Him. Please refer to the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy" for a fuller explation of it. Although we can discuss what other pastors, preachers, teachers, churches, people, etc. explanations are, it all does come back to the final authority of the Word of God and not writers, pastors, theologians, churches or any other temporal entity (although we do use those for some help and understanding, just not the final authority on the matter). Remember, all these others are also appealing to the Word of God, in their explanations and understandings.

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago2.html
[this part gives guidelines for interpretating the Word of God]

The following article from the Institute of Creation Research, regarding earthquakes that we have seen and have been recorded, copied and printed in a Christian website, by Lambert Dolphin.

EARTHQUAKES AND THE END TIMES: A GEOLOGICAL AND BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE

Steven A. Austin and Mark L. Strauss*

Institute for Creation Research, PO Box 2667, El Cajon, CA 92021
Voice: (619) 448-0900 FAX: (619) 448-3469

(Unpublished manuscript of January 14, 1999. These authors published a simplified,
less technical version of this paper in 1999 under the title "Are Earthquakes Signs of the End Times?:
A Geological and Biblical Response to an Urban Legend,"
Christian Research Journal, vol. 21, no. 4, pp. 30-39.)

(From: http://www.icr.org/research/sa/sa-r06.htm)

Our primary concern is with the first part of the discourse, where Jesus warns against being deceived by false christs or being alarmed at wars, rumors of wars, famines and earthquakes:

And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs." (Matt. 24:4-8)

Among dispensationalists there are two main interpretations of these verses. As we shall see, neither confirms that earthquakes will increase as the present Church age draws to a close.

(1) Some dispensationalists see the whole of the Olivet Discourse as relating to the tribulation period. Verses 4-8 are usually said to concern the disturbances of the first half of the tribulation while verses 9-26 concern the second half - the Great Tribulation.53 Evidence for this is claimed in the similarity between the events described in verses 4-8 and those associated with the seven seals of Revelation 6.54 For advocates of this view, the earthquakes identified in verses 7-8 are not part of the present Church age, but rather the tribulation period. In this case, even if the birth image in verse 8 were to indicate an increase in earthquakes (which is not necessary - see discussion below), this increase occurs during the tribulation, not during the present Church age. Present (Church age) data concerning earthquake frequency has little or no bearing on the text.

(2) Other dispensationalists (as well as many non-dispensationalists) claim that verses 4-8 (or verses 4-14) concern not the tribulation period, but general signs which are characteristic of the present age. Lewis Sperry Chafer wrote that the events described in verses 4-8 "are the characteristics of the unforeseen intervening or intercalary age"55 - that is, the Church age. John Walvoord similarly affirms that "verses 4-14 are general prophecies that can find fulfillment throughout the present age, with verses 15-30 fulfilled in the Great Tribulation."56 He adds, however, that these former events "are repeated in the Great Tribulation when what was perhaps partially fulfilled earlier then have a very literal and devastating fulfillment."57 The primary evidence that verses 4-14 are signs characteristic of the present age are their general nature and the fact that Jesus identifies them as events which do not indicate the end ("but that is not yet the end") and so should not provoke apocalyptic fervor ("see that you are not alarmed").

[ an excerpt, see the link for complete article ... ]

Figure 1. Global frequency of the largest earthquakes during the twentieth century. Graph (a) shows the frequency of M 7.0 earthquakes during the entire century (1960 events). Graph (b) shows the frequency of M 6.5 earthquakes after 1930 (4593 events). In both plots a general decrease in earthquake frequency is evident through the twentieth century.

Table 1. Numbers of M 6.0 earthquakes worldwide in the twentieth century. The numbers of earthquakes reported in the National Geophysical Data Center file called "1900.EQ" greatly exceed those reported by Hal Lindsey from his unspecified U.S. Geological Survey source.

I'm going to remind people about the Pre-Trib Research Center, headed up by Dr. Thomas Ice, a real warrior for the Rapture teaching in the Bible. They've had an update in their webpage layouts and it's a good time to look it over again.

These members meet every year in Dallas and have a symposium and/or meeting and discuss various things about the Pre-Trib Rapture (and topics that associate with it) in a scholarly fashion.

This is an excellent resource for all those who engage in defending what the Bible teaches about the Rapture. There is much information given, in the list of articles, by the various members of the Pre-Trib Research Center. There is an embarassing wealth of information there.

Of course, not everything and every point and every paper is going to be something that all members agree with, across the board, but it is a scholarly discussion group, in support of the Biblical teaching of the Rapture and of Israel being distinct and separate from the church, and that Israel has a place with God, as a nation, forevermore.

Here is what they say are their beliefs ...

What We Believe

PTRC Mission Statement
The Pre-Trib Research Center is a "think tank" committed to the study, proclamation, teaching and defending of the Pretribulational Rapture (pre-70th week of Daniel) and related end-time prophecy.
PTRC Doctrinal Statement
We believe that the sixty-six, canonical books of the Old and New Testaments, alone and in their entirety, comprise the God-inspired Scriptures which, therefore, are inerrant in their autographs.
We believe the Bible should be interpreted normally, as with any other piece of sane literature, by a consistently literal hermeneutic which recognizes the clear usage of speech figures.
We believe that Christ will literally rapture His church prior to the 70th week of Daniel, followed by His glorious, premillennial arrival on the earth at least seven years later to set up His 1,000 year kingdom rule from Jerusalem over the earth.
We believe that God's plan for history demands a consistent distinction between national Israel and the church which includes an ongoing plan for national, ethnic Israel that culminates in Christ's millennial kingdom.

What the Pre-Trib Research Center is About?

In 1991 Dr. Tim LaHaye became concerned about a perceived swaying from the pretribulational doctrine. In 1992 Dr. LaHaye released his book on the rapture: No Fear of the Storm from Multnomah Press. It was re-released in 1998 as Rapture Under Attack. In the process of preparing the first edition of his rapture book, Dr. LaHaye was impressed with the gatherings of the Albury Park and Powerscourt Conference in Britain during the late 1820s and early 1830s where leaders gathered to discuss issues relating to Bible prophecy. Dr. LaHaye contacted Dr. Thomas Ice and discussed the possibility of calling a similar meeting for December 1992. This meeting came about in Dallas with about 35 top prophecy scholars, authors, and populists participating in the three-day event. The group adopted the title of The Pre-Trib Study Group (PTSG). Dr. LaHaye was elected Chairman of the steering committee and Dr. Ice Vice Chairman.
At the next year's meeting, December 1993 in Dallas, The PTSG elected Dr. Ice to become full-time Executive Director of the newly formed Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC). The PTRC was conceived by Dr. LaHaye for the purpose of encouraging the research, teaching, propagation, and defense of the pretribulational rapture and related Bible prophecy doctrines. PTRC began functioning in the offices of Dr. LaHaye's Family Life Seminars in Washington, D.C. in March 1994. PTRC has sponsored the annual PTSG meeting in December of each year and just completed its seventh such meeting in 1999.
The Pre-Trib Research Center has over 200 members in association with its efforts. Most of the top prophecy scholars, authors, and popularizes are members of the Center and Study Group. The association of these prophecy experts, which have been facilitated by the Pre-Trib organization, has contributed to the inspiration of dozens of books, articles, conferences, and events that express and defend the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy and the pre-trib rapture. PTRC and the Study Group have worked to bring together veteran prophecy experts to share their knowledge and encouragement concerning these matters to a younger generation of students and advocates. In this way the torch is being passed to a new generation.
Dr. LaHaye and Dr. Ice, along with others associated with PTRC, have produced an impressive amount of literature that further the cause of pretribulationism and the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy. The PTRC is also involved in speaking at prophecy conferences and churches, producing key audio tapes, and now with the advent of this Internet site, providing various materials here as well. PTRC has published over the years its monthly publication called the Pre-Trib Perspectives and has various other future goals.
PTRC wants to impact Pastors and individual Christians with the central role and importance that Bible prophecy, especially the any-moment possibility of the rapture, should play in the life of the church. Dr. LaHaye and PTRC stresses three practical implications that flow from the rapture teaching. The first implication of pretribulationism is that it leads to godly living in an unholy age. Next, this New Testament teaching promotes a strong emphasis upon evangelism of the lost. Finally, when believers come to understand this eternal perspective, it leads to a zeal for worldwide missions. This is why we at the PTRC are "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." (Titus 2:13)

Dr. Thomas Ice

Dr. Ice is Executive Director of The Pre-Trib Research Center and on faculty at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. He founded The Center in 1994 with Dr. Tim LaHaye to research, teach, and defend the pretribulational rapture and related Bible prophecy doctrines. The Center is currently located on the campus of Liberty University.
Dr. Ice has co-authored about 30 books, written hundreds of articles, and is a frequent conference speaker. He has served as a pastor for 15 years. Dr. Ice has a B.A. from Howard Payne University, a Th.M. from Dallas Theological Seminary, a Ph.D. from Tyndale Theological Seminary, and is a Doctoral Candidate at The University of Wales in Church History. Dr. Ice lives in Lynchburg, Virginia with his wife Janice. Two of their three boys are college graduates and the third is currently in college.

Okay, getting ready for some more postings here on this thread... and this is the standard reminder for those who are coming in for the first time, what the "Rapture Caucus" is about and who cannot post here ...

So, we can come back to this time and time again, and it never gets old... :-)

BUT... to make sure that any new poster is "up-to-speed" on the rules for the Rapture Caucus, I post that here again.

In short they say, "post here in this thread if you support the Pre-trib, Mid-trib and/or Pre-wrath Rapture [not Post-trib]. Otherwise, if you don't -- don't post here.

The Rapture Caucus is operated under the Religion Moderator's rules for these types of threads.

Types of threads and guidelines pertaining to the Religion Forum:
[Threads listed are "Prayer", "Devotional", "Caucus" and "Ecumenical"; included here is the "Caucus" definition.]

Caucus threads are closed to any poster who is not a member of the caucus.

For instance, if it says “Catholic Caucus” and you are not Catholic, do not post to the thread. However, if the poster of the caucus invites you, I will not boot you from the thread.
The “caucus” article and posts must not compare beliefs or speak in behalf of a belief outside the caucus.

Caucus threads.

Who can post? Members of the caucus and those specifically invited
What can be posted? Anything but the beliefs of those who are not members of the caucus
What will be pulled? Reply posts mentioning the beliefs of those who are not members of the caucus. If the article is inappropriate for a caucus, the tag will be changed to open.
Who will be booted? Repeat offenders.

Now, back to my own comments...

Some FReepers may have gotten jumped on (in other threads) for posting their belief in the Rapture, from what the Bible says. But -- here -- we're in support of the Rapture.

Those who await the Rapture, are looking for that "Blessed Hope", Jesus Christ coming in the clouds, for His Bride, the Church.

So, feel free to join in the discussion -- in support of the Rapture -- as we talk about what information you have from the Bible, seminaries, church, pastors, books, friends and so on.

Also, another "given" here is the Inspiration of Scripture from God, an inerrant and infallible Word from Him. Please refer to the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy" for a fuller explation of it. Although we can discuss what other pastors, preachers, teachers, churches, people, etc. explanations are, it all does come back to the final authority of the Word of God and not writers, pastors, theologians, churches or any other temporal entity (although we do use those for some help and understanding, just not the final authority on the matter). Remember, all these others are also appealing to the Word of God, in their explanations and understandings.

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago2.html
[this part gives guidelines for interpretating the Word of God]