Do you think the Hopi and Mayan Prophecy's are intertwined with Biblical Prophecy End Times?

WELL PUT!

THANKS AND BLESS YOU

for your kind affirmation of Biblical truths.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

tee hee!

Seems to me Jesus was more than a little passionate . . .

ABOUT THE FATHER

ABOUT THE MONEY CHANGERS AND HIS FATHER’S HOUSE

ABOUT THE CROSS AND HIS LOVE FOR US

How dare we be wimpy pablum????

The deceit of wicked men who without shame try to lead others astray into sin..

Those who appear to be religious but appeal to the flesh
Those who subtly pervert the gospel by preaching well but actually denying Jesus as God in the flesh

INDEED!

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. Matthew 24:24

I believe this is a reference to events leading up to of AD70, the destruction of the temple. At least that is what the entire context seems to indicate.

4 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' [aka “Jerusalem surrounded by armies”, Luke 21:20] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand. (Marl 13)

Jesus’ use of phrases like “those who are in Judea flee to the mountains”, “him who is on the housetop”, and “pray that your flight may not be in winter” are strong indicators that He was speaking of localized events in and around the city of Jerusalem in the 1st century. Folks don’t care much about housetops of travel in winter these days of modern homes and transportation. They did in that day when folks lived on the housetop and traveled everywhere by foot or animal. The fact that folks were told to “flee to the mountains” also makes it clear that this is a very localized situation in the immediate vicinity of Jerusalem, not some catastrophe that encompasses the Middle East or the world.

What *Human Being* could take on the task of performing great signs and miracles?

“signs and wonders”, not miracles. Only God can perform a miracle. Men can perform false signs and wonders, aka the Egyptian priests in Exodus who opposed Moses and Aaron, and the sorcerers in Acts 13.

So then you accept the fact that Jesus Second Coming where every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord is not = to Jesus coming as a *Thief in the Night*

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 (NIV) for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
THIS WOULD ONLY APPLY TO BELIEVERS SINCE THE ONES WHO DO NOT BELIEVE ARE NOT SEEKING THE LORD>
2 Peter 3:10 (NIV) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Revelation 3:3 (NIV) Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
TOPCAT..
Since you said the Bible does not address a *GOSPEL TIMELINE* How do you know Jesus coming like a thief in the night and the second coming are 2 events happening in the same timeline?

So then you accept the fact that Jesus Second Coming where every knee shall bow and confess Jesus is Lord is not = to Jesus coming as a *Thief in the Night*

I do not follow your logic. Both 1 Thess 5 and 2 Peter 3 that you quoted confirm that the “thief in the night” event is the Second Coming. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar;”

Since you said the Bible does not address a *GOSPEL TIMELINE*

Where did I say that? All I said was that since the Rapture/Second Coming/Judgment Day are all spoken of as the same event in the Bible, whether they occupy chronological time or not is unknown. They appear to be outside of normal time as we know it. I do not know where you get any notion of a “gospel timeline” from what I wrote.

It’s worth a try!

There’s at least the novelty value! LOL.

The naysayers tend to provide so many lunacy posts that logical Biblical congruence and sanity can sometimes end up as quite the novelty! LOL.

Maybe I have mis-understood you, so let me ask you this way..

Jesus is coming like a *Thief in the Night* and the Second Coming where all will see him come in the clouds..

Where in Scripture do these 2 events lead you to believe that Jesus comes to earth and will set up his Millenial Kingdom?

Plus- Isn’t the Devil Satan to remain on the earth for a 1000 years?

Jesus Christ Himself promised, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” John 14:2-

Jesus also said, “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Matthew 24:30.

The book of Revelation proclaims the following about the Second Coming, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he does judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.” Revelation 19:11-12.

Those who witnessed Christ’s ascension into heaven after his death and resurrection heard the angels declare in Acts 1:9-11

They are only here to distract, disrupt and to dissuade. It probably ticks them off to know that we know that and act accordingly.

As for this discussion, I don’t know the answers, but I figure it can’t hurt to read up as much as I can on the subjects presented. The core belief in Jesus is always there though, unchanged and unchallenged (at least by me). I do sometimes wonder if it makes me a bad Christian to NOT try to sway or convert others to Christianity. I just have never tried and probably never will. In my mind, it’s up to every individual to make that decision for themselves.

Scripture speaks of providing “to every man an answer.”

However, there’s a time to leave alone and a time to initiate and certainly a time to respond.

According to Holy Spirit’s leading, imho.

I think you do a good job hereon. Thanks.

Blessings,

Where in Scripture do these 2 events lead you to believe that Jesus comes to earth and will set up his Millenial Kingdom?

Nowhere. There is no future millennial kingdom after Christ’s Second Coming. There cannot be, according to 2 Peter 3.

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”

“Day of the Lord”, “day of God”. Peter teaches this all as one, singular event. How can you have a millennial kingdom after the introduction of the new heavens and new earth?

Also, they are not two events, rapture vs. Second Coming, but one event from two perspectives.

Plus- Isn’t the Devil Satan to remain on the earth for a 1000 years?

Nowhere is that taught in the Bible.

Those who witnessed Christ’s ascension into heaven after his death and resurrection heard the angels declare in Acts 1:9-11

I’m not sure that you are driving at. I have not denied the fact of Christ’s future Second Coming. I believe it.

You said — “I’ll try one more time to get you to address this from the Bible.”

—

Here is what the Bible says in 2 Timothy about Scripture...

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

And I have posted several times before (which I shall at the bottom, here, too) about the Doctrine of Inerrancy (regarding the inerrant and infallible nature of Scripture). We see what this inerrant Word of God is for.

We have everything that we need in Scripture for what it says — for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

And anything that is given to us beyond that doctrine and reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness, in the Bible, which may speak on other matters or facts — is also 100% inerrant and infallible, too. There are things which are given in Scripture which go beyond those things in 2 Timothy (on other facts and truths).

We have things of history, facts related to science (i.e., things that science wants to claim authority over, but the Bible does have the ultimate authority in all things it speaks about), things related to miscellaneous other facts and human behavior and/or animal behavior [i.e., an animal can speak, if given authority from God] and any other thing in the world.

But, in saying that, at the same time — it is *both* acknowledged and well-recognized that the Bible *does not contain* — “all truth” — that is or exists. Not at all. What it *does contain* — is 100% truth and inerrant — but it does not contain *all truth*.

In fact, it’s very easy for any one of us to state an *absolute* and *verifiable truth* from anything from our own life and direct experience and observation and interactions — which is *truth* — which is *not contained in the Bible*. It happens every day, with any one of us.

In addition we are told in the Bible, that there are two other areas where we are made aware of “truth” — in terms of God and who He is. One area is in (1) “creation” and the other area is (2) “in us” (God having made it known inside of everyone). The Bible says we are aware of God “in us”. This is “general revelation” — those two areas. That’s why there are certain things that are “givens” in that everyone knows certain things to be true — “a priori truth”. You can say that the Declaration of Independence is giving us “a priori truth” in establishing the foundation for this country.

Thus, God has given us (1) “general revelation” and (2) “specific revelation”. God tells us who He is through general revelation (i.e. through creation and inside of us, too, in who “we” are and how we understand thing [i.e., “it’s inherent” and it’s “built into us”; by God, obviously]) — and then He tells us who He is through “specific revelation”, which is His inerrant and infallible word.

Specific revelation tells us some things of “general revelation” but is more specifically related to the Gospel message and that which 2 Timothy 3:16-17 speaks of. General revelation tells us who God is in the creation and it shows His divine attributes and character through all things that He has made in creation, including the creation of us, as human beings, too (that would be part of general revelation).

Therefore, there is *truth* in General Revelation, that is not revealed in specific revelation (i.e. the Bible) as the Bible has a specific purpose — and that is not to be an all-encompassing treatise on *all truth* — but only truth related to what I just mentioned above.

Thus we are given other ways to determine *truth* — which does exist outside of the Bible. But, one thing should be made clear by this (which is covered in the Doctrine of Inerrancy...) — that *any truth* which is spoken about or mentioned in the Bible — that is the *final judge* on any other truth that may be found in “General Revelation”.

An example of that is — if people by means of “General Revelation” (in the observation and discovery of truth in the world that we live in) find that “certain facts” lead them to a conclusion that the flood never happened, then that is in direct contradiction to the inerrant and infallible statement of the Bible to that very thing. In that case, the Bible’s authority overrides something that others have supposedly gathered from General Revelation.

But, not all things are addressed (i.e, not “all truth” and not “all facts”) in Specific Revelation (i.e., the Bible), so we do have General Revelation to *instruct us* — in these other truths that we *learn* from the General Revelation that God has given us.

We see this in Romans...

Romans 1:18-21

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

So, when we observe creation we are observing the characteristics and attributes of God, because He has told us that His invisible attributes are *clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead.*

God *made it so* — that his invisible attributes are seen through His creation. So you see, we are told that we *will know* these invisible attributes from His creation. And if we *refuse* to acknowledge these invisible attributes of God then we are *subject to* —

“... the wrath of God ... revelaed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”

Thus, when we see in creation that very thing, as stated in Occam’s razor — we *are seeing the attributes of God* — as He has said we will — or else — we “suppress the truth in unrighteousness*...

CHICAGO STATEMENT ON BIBLICAL INERRANCY WITH EXPOSITION

Background

The “Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy” was produced at an international Summit Conference of evangelical leaders, held at the Hyatt Regency O’Hare in Chicago in the fall of 1978. This congress was sponsored by the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy. The Chicago Statement was signed by nearly 300 noted evangelical scholars, including James Boice, Norman L. Geisler, John Gerstner, Carl F. H. Henry, Kenneth Kantzer, Harold Lindsell, John Warwick Montgomery, Roger Nicole, J. I. Packer, Robert Preus, Earl Radmacher, Francis Schaeffer, R. C. Sproul, and John Wenham.

The ICBI disbanded in 1988 after producing three major statements: one on biblical inerrancy in 1978, one on biblical hermeneutics in 1982, and one on biblical application in 1986. The following text, containing the “Preface” by the ICBI draft committee, plus the “Short Statement,” “Articles of Affirmation and Denial,” and an accompanying “Exposition,” was published in toto by Carl F. H. Henry in God, Revelation And Authority, vol. 4 (Waco, Tx.: Word Books, 1979), on pp. 211-219. The nineteen Articles of Affirmation and Denial, with a brief introduction, also appear in A General Introduction to the Bible, by Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix (Chicago: Moody Press, rev. 1986), at pp. 181-185. An official commentary on these articles was written by R. C. Sproul in Explaining Inerrancy: A Commentary (Oakland, Calif.: ICBI, 1980), and Norman Geisler edited the major addresses from the 1978 conference, in Inerrancy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1980).

Clarification of some of the language used in this Statement may be found in the 1982 Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics [ http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago2.html ]

—

The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy

Preface

The authority of Scripture is a key issue for the Christian church in this and every age. Those who profess faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are called to show the reality of their discipleship by humbly and faithfully obeying God’s written Word. To stray from Scripture in faith or conduct is disloyalty to our Master. Recognition of the total truth and trustworthiness of Holy Scripture is essential to a full grasp and adequate confession of its authority.

The following Statement affirms this inerrancy of Scripture afresh, making clear our understanding of it and warning against its denial. We are persuaded that to deny it is to set aside the witness of Jesus Christ and of the Holy Spirit and to refuse that submission to the claims of God’s own Word which marks true Christian faith. We see it as our timely duty to make this affirmation in the face of current lapses from the truth of inerrancy among our fellow Christians and misunderstandings of this doctrine in the world at large.

This Statement consists of three parts: a Summary Statement, Articles of Affirmation and Denial, and an accompanying Exposition. It has been prepared in the course of a three-day consultation in Chicago. Those who have signed the Summary Statement and the Articles wish to affirm their own conviction as to the inerrancy of Scripture and to encourage and challenge one another and all Christians to growing appreciation and understanding of this doctrine. We acknowledge the limitations of a document prepared in a brief, intensive conference and do not propose that this Statement be given creedal weight. Yet we rejoice in the deepening of our own convictions through our discussions together, and we pray that the Statement we have signed may be used to the glory of our God toward a new reformation of the Church in its faith, life, and mission.

We offer this Statement in a spirit, not of contention, but of humility and love, which we purpose by God’s grace to maintain in any future dialogue arising out of what we have said. We gladly acknowledge that many who deny the inerrancy of Scripture do not display the consequences of this denial in the rest of their belief and behavior, and we are conscious that we who confess this doctrine often deny it in life by failing to bring our thoughts and deeds, our traditions and habits, into true subjection to the divine Word.

We invite response to this statement from any who see reason to amend its affirmations about Scripture by the light of Scripture itself, under whose infallible authority we stand as we speak. We claim no personal infallibility for the witness we bear, and for any help which enables us to strengthen this testimony to God’s Word we shall be grateful.

— The Draft Committee

—

A Short Statement

1. God, who is Himself Truth and speaks truth only, has inspired Holy Scripture in order thereby to reveal Himself to lost mankind through Jesus Christ as Creator and Lord, Redeemer and Judge. Holy Scripture is God’s witness to Himself.

2. Holy Scripture, being God’s own Word, written by men prepared and superintended by His Spirit, is of infallible divine authority in all matters upon which it touches: it is to be believed, as God’s instruction, in all that it affirms: obeyed, as God’s command, in all that it requires; embraced, as God’s pledge, in all that it promises.

3. The Holy Spirit, Scripture’s divine Author, both authenticates it to us by His inward witness and opens our minds to understand its meaning.

4. Being wholly and verbally God-given, Scripture is without error or fault in all its teaching, no less in what it states about God’s acts in creation, about the events of world history, and about its own literary origins under God, than in its witness to God’s saving grace in individual lives.

5. The authority of Scripture is inescapably impaired if this total divine inerrancy is in any way limited or disregarded, or made relative to a view of truth contrary to the Bible’s own; and such lapses bring serious loss to both the individual and the Church.

—

Articles of Affirmation and Denial

— Article I.

WE AFFIRM that the Holy Scriptures are to be received as the authoritative Word of God.

WE DENY that the Scriptures receive their authority from the Church, tradition, or any other human source.

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— Article II.

WE AFFIRM that the Scriptures are the supreme written norm by which God binds the conscience, and that the authority of the Church is subordinate to that of Scripture.

WE DENY that Church creeds, councils, or declarations have authority greater than or equal to the authority of the Bible.

-

— Article III.

WE AFFIRM that the written Word in its entirety is revelation given by God.

WE DENY that the Bible is merely a witness to revelation, or only becomes revelation in encounter, or depends on the responses of men for its validity.

-

— Article IV.

WE AFFIRM that God who made mankind in His image has used language as a means of revelation.

WE DENY that human language is so limited by our creatureliness that it is rendered inadequate as a vehicle for divine revelation. We further deny that the corruption of human culture and language through sin has thwarted God’s work of inspiration.

-

— Article V.

WE AFFIRM that God’s revelation within the Holy Scriptures was progressive.

WE DENY that later revelation, which may fulfill earlier revelation, ever corrects or contradicts it. We further deny that any normative revelation has been given since the completion of the New Testament writings.

-

— Article VI.

WE AFFIRM that the whole of Scripture and all its parts, down to the very words of the original, were given by divine inspiration.

WE DENY that the inspiration of Scripture can rightly be affirmed of the whole without the parts, or of some parts but not the whole.

-

— Article VII.

WE AFFIRM that inspiration was the work in which God by His Spirit, through human writers, gave us His Word. The origin of Scripture is divine. The mode of divine inspiration remains largely a mystery to us.

WE DENY that inspiration can be reduced to human insight, or to heightened states of consciousness of any kind.

-

— Article VIII.

WE AFFIRM that God in His work of inspiration utilized the distinctive personalities and literary styles of the writers whom He had chosen and prepared.

WE DENY that God, in causing these writers to use the very words that He chose, overrode their personalities.

-

— Article IX.

WE AFFIRM that inspiration, though not conferring omniscience, guaranteed true and trustworthy utterance on all matters of which the Biblical authors were moved to speak and write.

WE DENY that the finitude or fallenness of these writers, by necessity or otherwise, introduced distortion or falsehood into God’s Word.

-

— Article X.

WE AFFIRM that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy. We further affirm that copies and translations of Scripture are the Word of God to the extent that they faithfully represent the original.

WE DENY that any essential element of the Christian faith is affected by the absence of the autographs. We further deny that this absence renders the assertion of Biblical inerrancy invalid or irrelevant.

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— Article XI.

WE AFFIRM that Scripture, having been given by divine inspiration, is infallible, so that, far from misleading us, it is true and reliable in all the matters it addresses.

WE DENY that it is possible for the Bible to be at the same time infallible and errant in its assertions. Infallibility and inerrancy may be distinguished, but not separated.

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— Article XII.

WE AFFIRM that Scripture in its entirety is inerrant, being free from all falsehood, fraud, or deceit.

WE DENY that Biblical infallibility and inerrancy are limited to spiritual, religious, or redemptive themes, exclusive of assertions in the fields of history and science. We further deny that scientific hypotheses about earth history may properly be used to overturn the teaching of Scripture on creation and the flood.

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— Article XIII.

WE AFFIRM the propriety of using inerrancy as a theological term with reference to the complete truthfulness of Scripture.

WE DENY that it is proper to evaluate Scripture according to standards of truth and error that are alien to its usage or purpose. We further deny that inerrancy is negated by Biblical phenomena such as a lack of modern technical precision, irregularities of grammar or spelling, observational descriptions of nature, the reporting of falsehoods, the use of hyperbole and round numbers, the topical arrangement of material, variant selections of material in parallel accounts, or the use of free citations.

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— Article XIV.

WE AFFIRM the unity and internal consistency of Scripture.

WE DENY that alleged errors and discrepancies that have not yet been resolved vitiate the truth claims of the Bible.

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— Article XV.

WE AFFIRM that the doctrine of inerrancy is grounded in the teaching of the Bible about inspiration.

WE DENY that Jesus’ teaching about Scripture may be dismissed by appeals to accommodation or to any natural limitation of His humanity.

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— Article XVI.

WE AFFIRM that the doctrine of inerrancy has been integral to the Church’s faith throughout its history.

WE DENY that inerrancy is a doctrine invented by scholastic Protestantism, or is a reactionary position postulated in response to negative higher criticism.

-

— Article XVII.

WE AFFIRM that the Holy Spirit bears witness to the Scriptures, assuring believers of the truthfulness of God’s written Word.

WE DENY that this witness of the Holy Spirit operates in isolation from or against Scripture.

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— Article XVIII.

WE AFFIRM that the text of Scripture is to be interpreted by grammatico-historical exegesis, taking account of its literary forms and devices, and that Scripture is to interpret Scripture.

WE DENY the legitimacy of any treatment of the text or quest for sources lying behind it that leads to relativizing, dehistoricizing, or discounting its teaching, or rejecting its claims to authorship.

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— Article XIX.

WE AFFIRM that a confession of the full authority, infallibility, and inerrancy of Scripture is vital to a sound understanding of the whole of the Christian faith. We further affirm that such confession should lead to increasing conformity to the image of Christ.

WE DENY that such confession is necessary for salvation. However, we further deny that inerrancy can be rejected without grave consequences, both to the individual and to the Church.

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

Exposition

Our understanding of the doctrine of inerrancy must be set in the context of the broader teachings of the Scripture concerning itself. This exposition gives an account of the outline of doctrine from which our summary statement and articles are drawn.

Creation, Revelation and Inspiration

The Triune God, who formed all things by his creative utterances and governs all things by His Word of decree, made mankind in His own image for a life of communion with Himself, on the model of the eternal fellowship of loving communication within the Godhead. As God’s image-bearer, man was to hear God’s Word addressed to him and to respond in the joy of adoring obedience. Over and above God’s self-disclosure in the created order and the sequence of events within it, human beings from Adam on have received verbal messages from Him, either directly, as stated in Scripture, or indirectly in the form of part or all of Scripture itself.

When Adam fell, the Creator did not abandon mankind to final judgment but promised salvation and began to reveal Himself as Redeemer in a sequence of historical events centering on Abraham’s family and culminating in the life, death, resurrection, present heavenly ministry, and promised return of Jesus Christ. Within this frame God has from time to time spoken specific words of judgment and mercy, promise and command, to sinful human beings so drawing them into a covenant relation of mutual commitment between Him and them in which He blesses them with gifts of grace and they bless Him in responsive adoration. Moses, whom God used as mediator to carry His words to His people at the time of the Exodus, stands at the head of a long line of prophets in whose mouths and writings God put His words for delivery to Israel. God’s purpose in this succession of messages was to maintain His covenant by causing His people to know His Name—that is, His nature—and His will both of precept and purpose in the present and for the future. This line of prophetic spokesmen from God came to completion in Jesus Christ, God’s incarnate Word, who was Himself a prophet—more than a prophet, but not less—and in the apostles and prophets of the first Christian generation. When God’s final and climactic message, His word to the world concerning Jesus Christ, had been spoken and elucidated by those in the apostolic circle, the sequence of revealed messages ceased. Henceforth the Church was to live and know God by what He had already said, and said for all time.

At Sinai God wrote the terms of His covenant on tables of stone, as His enduring witness and for lasting accessibility, and throughout the period of prophetic and apostolic revelation He prompted men to write the messages given to and through them, along with celebratory records of His dealings with His people, plus moral reflections on covenant life and forms of praise and prayer for covenant mercy. The theological reality of inspiration in the producing of Biblical documents corresponds to that of spoken prophecies: although the human writers’ personalities were expressed in what they wrote, the words were divinely constituted. Thus, what Scripture says, God says; its authority is His authority, for He is its ultimate Author, having given it through the minds and words of chosen and prepared men who in freedom and faithfulness “spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (1 Pet. 1:21). Holy Scripture must be acknowledged as the Word of God by virtue of its divine origin.

Authority: Christ and the Bible

Jesus Christ, the Son of God who is the Word made flesh, our Prophet, Priest, and King, is the ultimate Mediator of God’s communication to man, as He is of all God’s gifts of grace. The revelation He gave was more than verbal; He revealed the Father by His presence and His deeds as well. Yet His words were crucially important; for He was God, He spoke from the Father, and His words will judge all men at the last day.

As the prophesied Messiah, Jesus Christ is the central theme of Scripture. The Old Testament looked ahead to Him; the New Testament looks back to His first coming and on to His second. Canonical Scripture is the divinely inspired and therefore normative witness to Christ. No hermeneutic, therefore, of which the historical Christ is not the focal point is acceptable. Holy Scripture must be treated as what it essentially is—the witness of the Father to the Incarnate Son.

It appears that the Old Testament canon had been fixed by the time of Jesus. The New Testament canon is likewise now closed inasmuch as no new apostolic witness to the historical Christ can now be borne. No new revelation (as distinct from Spirit-given understanding of existing revelation) will be given until Christ comes again. The canon was created in principle by divine inspiration. The Church’s part was to discern the canon which God had created, not to devise one of its own.

The word canon, signifying a rule or standard, is a pointer to authority, which means the right to rule and control. Authority in Christianity belongs to God in His revelation, which means, on the one hand, Jesus Christ, the living Word, and, on the other hand, Holy Scripture, the written Word. But the authority of Christ and that of Scripture are one. As our Prophet, Christ testified that Scripture cannot be broken. As our Priest and King, He devoted His earthly life to fulfilling the law and the prophets, even dying in obedience to the words of Messianic prophecy. Thus, as He saw Scripture attesting Him and His authority, so by His own submission to Scripture He attested its authority. As He bowed to His Father’s instruction given in His Bible (our Old Testament), so He requires His disciples to do—not, however, in isolation but in conjunction with the apostolic witness to Himself which He undertook to inspire by His gift of the Holy Spirit. So Christians show themselves faithful servants of their Lord by bowing to the divine instruction given in the prophetic and apostolic writings which together make up our Bible.

By authenticating each other’s authority, Christ and Scripture coalesce into a single fount of authority. The Biblically-interpreted Christ and the Christ-centered, Christ-proclaiming Bible are from this standpoint one. As from the fact of inspiration we infer that what Scripture says, God says, so from the revealed relation between Jesus Christ and Scripture we may equally declare that what Scripture says, Christ says.

Infallibility, Inerrancy, Interpretation

Holy Scripture, as the inspired Word of God witnessing authoritatively to Jesus Christ, may properly be called infallible and inerrant. These negative terms have a special value, for they explicitly safeguard crucial positive truths.

lnfallible signifies the quality of neither misleading nor being misled and so safeguards in categorical terms the truth that Holy Scripture is a sure, safe, and reliable rule and guide in all matters.

Similarly, inerrant signifies the quality of being free from all falsehood or mistake and so safeguards the truth that Holy Scripture is entirely true and trustworthy in all its assertions.

We affirm that canonical Scripture should always be interpreted on the basis that it is infallible and inerrant. However, in determining what the God-taught writer is asserting in each passage, we must pay the most careful attention to its claims and character as a human production. In inspiration, God utilized the culture and conventions of His penman’s milieu, a milieu that God controls in His sovereign providence; it is misinterpretation to imagine otherwise.

So history must be treated as history, poetry as poetry, hyperbole and metaphor as hyperbole and metaphor, generalization and approximation as what they are, and so forth. Differences between literary conventions in Bible times and in ours must also be observed: since, for instance, non-chronological narration and imprecise citation were conventional and acceptable and violated no expectations in those days, we must not regard these things as faults when we find them in Bible writers. When total precision of a particular kind was not expected nor aimed at, it is no error not to have achieved it. Scripture is inerrant, not in the sense of being absolutely precise by modern standards, but in the sense of making good its claims and achieving that measure of focused truth at which its authors aimed.

The truthfulness of Scripture is not negated by the appearance in it of irregularities of grammar or spelling, phenomenal descriptions of nature, reports of false statements (e.g., the lies of Satan), or seeming discrepancies between one passage and another. It is not right to set the so-called “phenomena” of Scripture against the teaching of Scripture about itself. Apparent inconsistencies should not be ignored. Solution of them, where this can be convincingly achieved, will encourage our faith, and where for the present no convincing solution is at hand we shall significantly honor God by trusting His assurance that His Word is true, despite these appearances, and by maintaining our confidence that one day they will be seen to have been illusions.

Inasmuch as all Scripture is the product of a single divine mind, interpretation must stay within the bounds of the analogy of Scripture and eschew hypotheses that would correct one Biblical passage by another, whether in the name of progressive revelation or of the imperfect enlightenment of the inspired writer’s mind.

Although Holy Scripture is nowhere culture-bound in the sense that its teaching lacks universal validity, it is sometimes culturally conditioned by the customs and conventional views of a particular period, so that the application of its principles today calls for a different sort of action.

Skepticism and Criticism

Since the Renaissance, and more particularly since the Enlightenment, world-views have been developed which involve skepticism about basic Christian tenets. Such are the agnosticism which denies that God is knowable, the rationalism which denies that He is incomprehensible, the idealism which denies that He is transcendent, and the existentialism which denies rationality in His relationships with us. When these un- and anti-biblical principles seep into men’s theologies at [a] presuppositional level, as today they frequently do, faithful interpretation of Holy Scripture becomes impossible.

Transmission and Translation

Since God has nowhere promised an inerrant transmission of Scripture, it is necessary to affirm that only the autographic text of the original documents was inspired and to maintain the need of textual criticism as a means of detecting any slips that may have crept into the text in the course of its transmission. The verdict of this science, however, is that the Hebrew and Greek text appear to be amazingly well preserved, so that we are amply justified in affirming, with the Westminster Confession, a singular providence of God in this matter and in declaring that the authority of Scripture is in no way jeopardized by the fact that the copies we possess are not entirely error-free.

Similarly, no translation is or can be perfect, and all translations are an additional step away from the autographa. Yet the verdict of linguistic science is that English-speaking Christians, at least, are exceedingly well served in these days with a host of excellent translations and have no cause for hesitating to conclude that the true Word of God is within their reach. Indeed, in view of the frequent repetition in Scripture of the main matters with which it deals and also of the Holy Spirit’s constant witness to and through the Word, no serious translation of Holy Scripture will so destroy its meaning as to render it unable to make its reader “wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 3:15).

Inerrancy and Authority

In our affirmation of the authority of Scripture as involving its total truth, we are consciously standing with Christ and His apostles, indeed with the whole Bible and with the main stream of Church history from the first days until very recently. We are concerned at the casual, inadvertent, and seemingly thoughtless way in which a belief of such far-reaching importance has been given up by so many in our day.

We are conscious too that great and grave confusion results from ceasing to maintain the total truth of the Bible whose authority one professes to acknowledge. The result of taking this step is that the Bible which God gave loses its authority, and what has authority instead is a Bible reduced in content according to the demands of one’s critical reasonings and in principle reducible still further once one has started. This means that at bottom independent reason now has authority, as opposed to Scriptural teaching. If this is not seen and if for the time being basic evangelical doctrines are still held, persons denying the full truth of Scripture may claim an evangelical identity while methodologically they have moved away from the evangelical principle of knowledge to an unstable subjectivism, and will find it hard not to move further.

We affirm that what Scripture says, God says. May He be glorified. Amen and Amen.

Webpage — http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

You said — “I’ll try one more time to get you to address this from the Bible.”

Well, my friend, just for the record you are still dodging the question. You made an assertion, viz, that God is not “wasteful” therefore He is bound to employ certain natural mechanisms over and against supernatural miracles, etc in the fulfillment of prophecy because He is “perfect”.

You claimed:

Well, there is a good principle to follow. God is not wasteful in his efforts and what He does.

You refuse to define the terms “wasteful” as it applies to God from the Bible. You refuse to explain how God would be “wasteful” by choosing A over B (even allowing you to choose any A and B).

You have invented a nebulous principle (God is not wasteful) out of whole cloth. You have used that principle to interpret Bible passages incorrectly. E.g.,

God can either [A] have the earth’s magnetic shield remain intact — or else — [B] God can “miraculously” put a “divine shield” around each person and maintain his life that way, in spite of the collapsed field.

You cannot demonstrate how B is more wasteful (from God’s vantage point), than A.

You have confused the boundaries that man operates under by virtue of being a creature, vs. God being the unlimited Creator of all things. General revelation gives you no support in your claim, since general revelation is totally inadequate to tell you anything specifically truthful about God’s actions in the world (i.e., a definition of “wasteful” wrt God). Your use of general vs. special revelation in this argument is seriously flawed. The Chicago Statement obviously gives you no support since you did not call out anything in it specifically to our attention. You just bombarded us with the entire thing.

You have not demonstrated any of these claims from the Bible (none of those passages speak directly to your claim), but have not chosen to obfuscate by citing a lengthy passage from an irrelevant document (to this discussion).

All of this just to support a highly questionable idea about “earth’s magnetic shield” and the book of Revelation.

about Am I missing something?

Well, if you can’t understand that post in #475, you’re basically beyond hope... :-)

It’s all pretty well established that while the Bible is inerrant and infallible in all that it speaks on — and — that the Bible does not contain all truth that exists.

And it’s also clear that General Revelation is given to us to understand God and His invisible attributes.

If you want to “suppress the truth in unrighteousness” — well, that’s your business.

I’ll be on the side of recognizing God’s invisible attributes, as He has said He has given them to us in His creation...

Topcat,
The what does Revelation 20 tell you about Satan being let loose once again?

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

topcat54, you were asking of TaraP — “Is it your contention that the Bible is insufficient to tell us all we need to know about future events?”

—

I would say that the key is in the “need to know” phrase. God has given us this much that we “need to know” in the Bible —

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

—

But, the Bible has not given us *all that we can possibly know* — in regards to many other things. So, no..., in that respect, the Bible *is insufficient* in regards to revealing *all truth*. But, it’s not insufficient, regards to what 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says...

TaraP, you said to topcat54 — “No not at all...”

in regards to his question up above, asking — “Is it your contention that the Bible is insufficient to tell us all we need to know about future events?”

—

It is *very clear* to me, that the Bible does *not give* all the information about future events — so yes — it is *insufficient* in terms of the “total knowledge” of those future events. There’s *absolutely no question about it* — it’s *absolutely insufficient* in terms of the total information of future events.

I think that’s so very clear to anyone who wants to see it.

But, does that mean that Bible is “insufficient” in and of itself — no, not at all. This is what 2 Timothy says about that...

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

That’s what the Bible is sufficient for — and *not* in regards to “all truth” that exists...