The coming evangelical collapse

The Christian Science Monitor ^ | March 10, 2009 | Michael Spencer

[Conservativegreatgrandma]

Well, they belong to the evil National Council of Churches. I wouldn't go to a one of them.

If you doubt me, read up on the National Council of Churches.

[RedDogzRule]

With all due respect, if the NCC is your sole benchmark, you are sadly mistaken. I believe the Orthodox Church recently left the NCC, since their whole purpose for having joined (to be a witness to the true faith and unify the Christian Church) was unsuccessful. I believe they are also soon to leave the WCC.

To claim, for instance that these Orthodox jurisdictions are “left wing organizations” is not fair, and show that you’ve probably never been in one for divine liturgy. The Orthodox Church has withstood 2000 years of heresies and upheaval, holding fast to Christ. For a historically speaking “recently-formed” Protestant or evangelical church to blast them, is to blast the memory of the Christian martyrs, upon whose faith and witness your “recent” church stands. And I’m a Lutheran stating this! I find it unwise to blast fellow Christians on an open forum. What kind of witness is that?

[raynearhood]

Let me ask again, why should I consider anything to be legitimate from this source?

Don't for all I care. I posted the article because I found it an interesting perspective on a problem that a lot of Evangelicals see happening. I thought it might spur better discussion than ad hominem arguments. You know, discussion like:

I think he's wrong on this point(s) because.....
OR
I agree with his assessment about....
OR
If he's right about the failing Evangelical movement, then such and such could be done.
OR
Has anybody whose an established Evangelical leader (preacher, theologian) wrote something about this?

I don't agree with his all solutions or predicted outcomes. If your looking for me defend the author's take on things, the Christian Science monitor, or the guys blog, don't, because it isn't happening.

In my original reply to you I linked to the site that first alerted me to this article. If you need more proof that this is a problem percieved by other Christians try Revolution by George Barna. From the poduct description:

World-renowned pollster George Barna has the numbers, and they indicate a revolution is already taking place within the Church - one that will impact every believer in America. Committed, born-again Christians are exiting the established church in massive numbers.

(*Disclaimer: I haven't read the book, but have read/been involved in discussion spurred by the books topic of an "Evangelical Exodus").

You can also look at Quitting Church: Why the Faithful are fleeing and what to do about it by Julia Duin. From the first chapter of the book:

Religious attendance fell from 41% in 1971 to 31% in 2002, according to a survey sponsored by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. For years, Gallup polls have shown church attendance hovering around 43 percwent of the population, which would mean 129 million out of an estimated 300 million Americans at the end of 2006. However, two 2005 studies, one by sociologists C. Kirk Hadaway and Penny Long Marler and the other by Dave Olson, a researcher for the Evangelical Covenant Church, show that a more accurate attendance percentage is in the 18th to 20th percentile...

I disagree with some of her opinions about the causes and solution, but I quote the book to illustrate that the problem is percieved.

As for the article's assessment of the core causes of the failing Evangelical movement: I agree with at least four, perhaps five, of his assessments.

[greyfoxx39]

Ping

[svcw]

I would agree the so called “mainline” will probably collapse. But the non denominational Spirit filled Biblical New Testament models will thrive.

I believe young people are tired of religiosity and want Bible based Spirit filled relationship gathering together of Christians who don't worry about big buildings and fancy clothes but Christians who get in the dirt and do something for the Kingdom.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Christian Science Monitor writing about...... Christians???

Right!

[raynearhood]

The author isn’t a Christian Scientist, the Monitor ran a summary of a series that Spencer did on his blog.

[Colofornian]

...the Monitor ran a summary of a series that Spencer did on his blog.

(And of course, we know the Monitor has no editorial or publishing agenda, eh?)

[Conservativegreatgrandma]

With all due respect, if the NCC is your sole benchmark, you are sadly mistaken. I believe the Orthodox Church recently left the NCC, since their whole purpose for having joined (to be a witness to the true faith and unify the Christian Church) was unsuccessful. I believe they are also soon to leave the WCC.

The National Council of Churches is pure evil. There is nothing good about them. I am sure there are plenty of good ignorant Christians sitting in the pews but that does not change the fact that the hierarchies of their churches are in bed with socialists/communists and working against the best interest of what any conservative would want.

If I am correct the Antiochian Orthodox church has left the NCC and I say good for them. Any other church who truly cares about the true word of God and advancing the kingdom of Christ will follow the Antiochian church and leave.

[raynearhood]

I'm not defending the Monitor and I'm not defending all the conclusions of the author. Would you be more comfortable with an Evangelical's take on the article.

I posted the article for discussion of the points made in the article, not the agenda of the source. See reply 63 for further explaination.

[ejonesie22]

I was Orthodox for many years despite being raised Methodist. I changed to get back to Conservative Christian principals which is what the Orthodox Faith was all about.

I am back in the Methodist church now due to various reasons. I can assure you the Orthodox Church is very conservative.

Oddly the Methodist, at least in the south, seem to be bucking the liberalization trend finally. I thought my conservative feelings would be a bit out of place but they haven't been and one can see there is growing frustration over what the "Methodist Church" does vs how many in local churches feel.

[Lee N. Field]

As a matter of fact, a local guy who's helping plant a PCA church (I'm keeping an eye on that effort as best I can) forwarded that to me yesterday. And I read it when Scott Clark linked to it from his blog.

When I get back home, I'll probably post what I sent him.

(Currently running my battery down at a hopeful political event .)

[Lee N. Field]

, called “NetMonk” or some such. He’s Catholic.

No he's not, not unless stuff's changed quite a bit since I last payed a great deal of attention to him. Last I knew, he was a house church kind-a guy.

So many messages, so little battery.

[Elsie]

Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it.

AMEN!!

But we ALSO have a lot of OLDER Christians that are in the same boat; but they are complaining about the 'music'!

[wmfights]

We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it.

Some see the glass half empty others see it half full.

I remember another thread where Baptist missionaries have been planting fundamentalist churches in Vermont where The Gospel is preached. These churches are growing. IOW, when The Gospel is preached "itching ears" will come. The end of the marketing age in the church will not mean the end of the church.

[raynearhood]

The end of the marketing age in the church will not mean the end of the church.

I agree. My take on it is that we'll see a major decline in the "market driven" churches and a return of real evangelicalism in the churches. I have mixed feelings about it, as I think attendance will initially decline. But at the same time the less tickling of itching ears, the better, in my opinion.

[RegulatorCountry]

Internet Monk. Ancient Church. Orthodoxy. Speaking of Protestant as “other.”

You appear to know much better than I, where Michael Spenser has been, but it’s fairly clear where he’s heading.

[topcat54]

Internet Monk. Ancient Church. Orthodoxy. Speaking of Protestant as “other.”

Spoken like a true fundamentalist. He may even -- horrors -- baptize babies.

[RegulatorCountry]

You speak of fundamentalism as if it is a bad thing. What Biblical fundamental do you find ... what, in poor taste or something? Bad?

Involuntary baptism of infants is pointless symbolism, just as baptizing the dead is pointless symbolism. Baptism itself, however, is anything but.

[wmfights]

My take on it is that we'll see a major decline in the "market driven" churches and a return of real evangelicalism in the churches.

So we may see smaller numbers, but the numbers will be more accurate.