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To: Cvengr; topcat54; Iscool; Lee N. Field; Quix; safisoft; Star Traveler
Since all of history is His Story, Dispensational Theology DOES focus upon His Plan and our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

That statement is nonsense. Anyone can make a nonsense statement like that:
Since all of history is His Story, Jehovah Witness Theology DOES focus upon His Plan and our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

Since all of history is His Story, Open Theist Theology DOES focus upon His Plan and our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.
See?

That is a silly argument and precisely why it wasn't the argument I was making (by answering Lee N. Field's reply you were, by default, answering my reply).

Any one systematic theology is not the object of our worship, rather our object is through faith in Him, by His Word.

If only that were true, then no-one would have such diametrical opposition to dispensational theology.

By separating the OT from the NT, and by splitting the Covenant of God into two separate covenants (one Covenant with Israel and one with the Church as opposed to the Old Covenant being PERFECTED in the New Covenant) dispensational theology makes an argument for the negation of the redemptive work of Christ relative to the nation state of Israel. According to dispensation theology, God is going to fulfill His promise to Israel during the millennial rule of Christ. No need for faith in the Cross, God will redeem the nation state.

But, the FACT is, God has fulfilled His promise to Israel by establishing the New Covenant.
Hebrews 8
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8For finding fault with them, He says,
”BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11"AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Now, the decendants of Abraham are nothing, the circumcision is nothing, the Old Covenant is nothing. It was a shadow of what was to come and it has passed away. Salvation is for those whose heart is circumcised by the Spirit, the circumcision of the flesh has no more meaning.
Romans 2
28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
It is through faith, not descent, that one is justified. The true descendents of Abraham, the heirs of the Old Covenant, are the faithful in Christ... not the circumcised in flesh.
Romans 4:
7"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17(as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

18In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." 19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; 20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 23Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.
The descedents of the circumcision of the flesh are waiting for the fulfillment of a promise that has already been fulfilled and they will be judged according to the Law. Dispensationalists are waiting on the same thing to happen for the Jews. God will not fulfill His promise to Israel in the future because He already has. That work is completed through the work of Christ.

All of dispensationalism hangs on the belief that the reestablishment of the nation state Israel is the moving principle by which prophecy is being fulfilled. All follow on erroneous dispensation theology interpretations of the endtimes hangs on the misguided interpretation of Scripture that God's Covenant through the circumcision of the flesh has not been fulfilled.

But the nation state Israel is not the Israel of the Covenant of God. They are not heirs to the promise. We are. End of story.
249 posted on 03/04/2009 7:49:03 AM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: raynearhood; Cvengr; Iscool; Lee N. Field; safisoft; Star Traveler
The descedents of the circumcision of the flesh are waiting for the fulfillment of a promise that has already been fulfilled and they will be judged according to the Law. Dispensationalists are waiting on the same thing to happen for the Jews. God will not fulfill His promise to Israel in the future because He already has. That work is completed through the work of Christ.

The State of Israel and the Kingdom to Come

Towards a Reformed Israelology

253 posted on 03/04/2009 9:47:39 AM PST by topcat54
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To: raynearhood
11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

You found a good verse, but you don't know what to do with it...

Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Who's the 'we'??? The WE is Christians...Gentile, Jew, and anything else in between...'For there is no difference', in Christ...And that's the difference, that there IS NO difference, in Christ...Outside of Christ, there's a HUGE difference...

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Whoa, What happened here??? Now there's an odd thing, isn't it...Over there in James, Abraham is NOW justified by works...

Now here in the book of Hebrews, someone is speaking obviously to believers in Jesus Christ...

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

So what's going on here??? Who are the 'THEM'??? Why are these Hebrews being spoken to as believers but are instructed to follow 'them' who will inherit the promises???

The 'THEM' is us...Christians...At the end of the New Testament Jesus is again speaking to the Hebrews...

Most people disregard the little words in scripture...I believe the are the main Characters in the Scriptures...Here's an example...

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Most if not all translations change that word 'by' to through...But they are not the same...We can know that because they are spelled differently...

Some people can get to God through Jesus Christ...(in Christ, Christ in you)...Others can get to God but not necessarily through Jesus Christ but 'by' the authority of Jesus Christ...But then you have to be a dispensationalist to get this...

dispensational theology makes an argument for the negation of the redemptive work of Christ relative to the nation state of Israel. According to dispensation theology, God is going to fulfill His promise to Israel during the millennial rule of Christ. No need for faith in the Cross, God will redeem the nation state.

I'd say you don't know dispensational theology...

Two things here...Jews will be saved during the Tribulation by faith in Jesus Christ AND good works...They must endure to the end (of the Tribulation, or their untimely death for their belief)...This takes place while the church, the body of Christ is in Heaven attending her wedding and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb...

258 posted on 03/04/2009 12:28:38 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: raynearhood
But the nation state Israel is not the Israel of the Covenant of G-d. They are not heirs to the promise. We are. End of story.

History is filled with such blustering. From Nebuchadnezzar to Hilter...

...for if G-d did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either... Romans 11:21

"Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, 'The two families which the L-RD chose, He has rejected them'? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. "Thus says the L-RD, 'If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.'" Jeremiah 33:24-26

And in case you think you have any hope at in the New Covenant, apart from Israel (literally), you are without hope...

"Behold, days are coming," declares the L-RD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... Jeremiah 31:31
263 posted on 03/04/2009 1:57:30 PM PST by safisoft
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To: raynearhood

The Church is not Israel.

end of story.


279 posted on 03/04/2009 6:47:12 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: raynearhood
God will not fulfill His promise to Israel in the future because He already has. That work is completed through the work of Christ.

Heb 8:10-11 still are not performed. Neither with Israel nor with the Church.

When somebody slips and replaces Israel with the Church, insisting all the Prophecy of Heb 8:10-11 has been fulfilled, then the Replacement Theologians need to ask themselves, why are they continuing to teach, if His Word is already written in their hearts and minds?

It's also very convenient for Replacement Theologians to forget all the cursings they should inherit along with the blessings they believe they have gained by replacing Israel.

281 posted on 03/04/2009 6:54:20 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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