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To: Iscool
Heaven is a physical, real place

Leaving aside the futility of insisting that I think what I don't think ...

"real" and "physical"— We've been round the houses on these words before.

To me "real" strictly speaking, means 'of or pertaining to a "thing"', so, by extension, existing in some manner comparable to that in which a thing exists. It comes from the Latin word "res" which means thing.

"Physical" comes from the Greek word φυω (phuo, noun cognate φυσις, phusis) to grow, the way plants and animals grow. This implies changing. It is often translated as "nature" which pertains to things that have a nativity, a birth. You have criticized those who take recourse to philosophy, but you use the language of philosophy to make your assertions.

But if you say that heaven is "real" and "physical" does this mean that you think the Holy Spirit in which a union with the Trinity must take place, and the Son through whom such a union is mediated, and the Father to whom we hope to be united are UNreal?

Or, if heaven is a real and physical place, are those words used in the same way of union with God? If not, and if in heaven we are still in the MERELY real and physical do we not "see Him as He is?"

If we see Him with "real and physical" sight in a real and physical place, is He a real and physical object among the other objects in heaven? My current "real and physical" sight is limited so that I can only look at so many things at a time. Will my hoped for vision of God obscure my sight so that looking at Him I can see the real and physical angels, saints, the glassy sea, the white robes, and crowns?

From my point of view your "real and physical" heaven is pretty small beer compared with the more than real and more than physical self-disclosure of God to the Blessed and the "ultimate realities" which are greater than the merely "real and physical".

And if you read the text you cite you will find that it says, ""heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ" (CCC 1026). We do not claim perfect incorporation into Christ for the members of the Church on earth. in our view the Church is rather a sacramental sign, that is it causes what it represents, of heaven, in a manner similar (but not exactly like) the presence of God in the Eucharist is not the same as the presence of God in the beatific vision.

So this quote will not serve to show that we use "home" univocally of Church and Heaven.

77 posted on 02/18/2009 7:54:52 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg; Iscool
Correction:

Will my hoped for vision of God obscure my sight so that looking at Him I can cannot see the real and physical angels, saints, the glassy sea, the white robes, and crowns?

78 posted on 02/18/2009 8:04:40 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
For the record, I assert that Heaven is not merely a state of the human mind. The quote from a man who is no longer my pope, as you falsely characterize him, does not assert that heaven is merely a state of the human mind.

From your previous pope:

In the context of Revelation, we know that the "heaven" or "happiness" in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds

Disembodied spirits are not extended in space. They don’t have shape or take up space. As a result, some have wondered whether heaven is a "place." This is a difficult question. Heaven is not a location in the physical universe. One could never travel far enough in any direction in space to arrive in heaven.

Your 'previous' pope doesn't seem to have as much trouble with the word 'physical' as some of you guys do...

So you guys will never walk up and down the streets of Heaven...Because it's not real in the physical sense...

By the way, I don't give a hoot what 'physical' means in Latin...I care what it means in English...And in English it means you are able to touch it, taste it, feel it, etc. etc...

It it was a significant revelation what something meant in the old, dead Latin, Latin would be the language of the world...But alas, it's English...

107 posted on 02/18/2009 1:07:39 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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