Anti-Mormon: The Mormon N-Word (Open)

Mormonism Research Ministry ^ | Bill McKeever

[restornu]

I choose door #2 thank you!:)

1- Again I say. If you are thin-skinned, ignore the “open” threads. Don’t read them, don’t post on them. As Truman said, if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

2- Now to any poster who actually wants to behave like a Christian on the Religion Forum - I recommend reading the Sermon on the Mount once again, especially the Beatitudes.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***And none of that changes the fact that God commanded the armies of Israel to go to battle many times rather than sending legions of angels to fight in their place. ***

When contending for LAND armies are always used, especially after Israel sinned against GOD and ended up dead in the wilderness. Only TWO adults who came out of EGYPT entered into the Holy Land, Joshua and Caleb.

If Joseph Smith was right why did the Danites and Legion NOT control the areas of Missouri and Illinois but were driven out! If they were in the will of GOD they would have not been driven out! Smith DID NOT HAVE THIS BACKING HIM UP as JOSHUA did!

Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, [Art] thou for us, or for our adversaries?

Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

Yet when contending for the sould of men God’s prophets needed no armies!
Elisha,
Elijah,
Micaiah, NO Armies!

Jesus..
Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Paul,
Peter, No armies!

In their early ministry the chains fell off, the jail doors opened.

When they came to the ends of their ministry they wrote their last letters and met death.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:

2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

When Smith saw the jig was up he fired into the crowd and bailed out the window as he was killed. Definitly not the death of a prophet who had “finished his course”.

[greyfoxx39]

Re post #81...apparently your advice is in one ear, out the other. "If you are thin-skinned, ignore the “open” threads. Don’t read them, don’t post on them. As Truman said, if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

We welcome the open threads and have developed VERY thick skin. It comes with the territory. I don't seen any pings to you from the Inman camp. In fact, I applaud your reserve on this thread, given the repeated whines to you. Thanks.

[Tennessee Nana]

You see, even back in the 70’s, I had studied enough to know that one day the blacks would hold the Priesthood.
___________________________________________

If you had read and studied The Bible, you would have known that the blacks were freed from the punishment of sin and were redeemed from the curse of sin at the same time that white folks was...

That Jesus paid the price with His blood on the cross, for blacks, whites, even mormons...

You would have known that Jesus died for ALL, once and for all...

Ahhh, back waaaaaaay before 70 AD...

Centuries before you “had studied enough to know that ONE DAY the blacks would hold the Priesthood.”

(The future had been and gone already)

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Romans 3:24, 25

For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:

Gal 3:14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galations 3:13, 14

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Gosh, Nana the WHOLE world...everyone ????

Even mormons ????

Yes, Grasshopper, white folks, black folks, and even mormons...

[fproy2222]

DR. SAMSON AVARD
DANITE LEADER TESTIMONY
Sampson Avard, a witness, produced, sworn, and examined, in behalf of the state, deposeth and saith:—

++++++

I followed the link you provided and could not find where your author got this information in the second part of your post.

Do you know where he got it?

[fproy2222]

First, the Danites were not formed by Joseph Smith nor at the command or with the consent of Joseph or the Church. Second, they were soon disbanded and their leader and founder excommunicated.

=+=+=
COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH
The testimony which was most effective in holding these men to investigation before grand juries was the sworn statements of apostates—Dr. Sampson Avard,

++++++++++

I find it of interest that you and/or your reference author would take the first part of a document as proof from the Church that the Danites were of this Church , when, the whole of the article is an examination of why the Danites were not of the Church.

The whole of the writing in the COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, explains how Dr. Sampson Avard mislead men into thinking that Joseph Smith was the leader of the Danites, and uses the part related here as a basis for relating what is wrong, not as to what the Church taught.

Did you check to see how your reference author misused the
reference from the COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH?

[fproy2222]

You see, even back in the 70’s, I had studied enough to know that one day the blacks would hold the Priesthood.
___________________________________________

If you had read and studied The Bible,

+++++++

Please remember, this was an example of how some people misrepresent our history and teachings.

We may disagree on what the teaching should be, but ya’ll have no right to misrepresent our history and teachings.

[greyfoxx39]

Did you check to see how your reference author misused the reference from the COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH?

Fred you are perfectly free to post any and all evidence you can find to refute Avard's testimony at the "Criminel Court of Inquiry Of Joseoph Smith, Jr., and Others, for High Treason and Other Crimes Against the State"

I sure you can find mormon sources that will demonize Avard's words. Bring it on.

http://www.farwesthistory.com/docco.htm

Document Containing the Correspondence, Orders, &C. In Relation to the Disturbances with the Mormons; and the Evidence Given before the Hon. Austin A. King, Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circuit of the State of Missouri, at the Court-house in Richmond, in a Criminal Court of Inquiry, Begun November 12, 1838, on the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr., and Others, for High Treason and Other Crimes Against the State. Published By Order of the General Assembly. Printed at the office of the Boon's Lick Democrat. Fayette, Missouri: 1841. EVIDENCE Sampson Avard - - - -     97

 

Austin Agustus King, (1802-1870), served as Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circuit of the State of Missouri, at the Richmond, Missouri, Courthouse, 1837-1848

---

Senate Document 189  Evidence from King's preliminary hearing presented before the U. S. Senate
From Joseph Smith's History Vault

---

 

[5th Judicial District]

RICHMOND COURT OF INQUIRY [PRELIMINARY HEARING.]

[ State of Missouri ]

EVIDENCE

The Testimony Given Before the Judge of the Fifth Judicial District of the State of Missouri, on the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr., and others, for High Treason and Other Crimes Against that State.

________

Printed at the office of the Boon's Lick Democrat.

1841.

________ Index

________ Correspondence, Evidence, &C.

________ Legislative Proceedings,
In the General Assembly of the State of Missouri,
House of Representatives, Thursday, November 22, 1838.

---

[Fifth Judicial District, State of Missouri]                                               97                                              
 

________

Given before the Hon. Austin A. King, judge of the fifth judicial circuit in the State of Missouri, at the court-house in Richmond, in a criminal court of inquiry begun November 12, 1838, on the trial of Joseph Smith, jr., and others, for high treason, and other crimes against the State.

State vs. Joseph Smith, jr., Hiram [sic - Hyrum is consistently misspelled throughout this document] Smith, Sidney Rigdon, Parley P. Pratt, Lyman Wight, Amasa Lyman, George W. Robinson, Caleb Baldwin, Alanson Ripley, Washington Voorhees, Sidney Turner, John Buckhannon, Jacob Gates, Chandler Haldbrook, George W. Harris, Jesse D. Hunter, Andrew Whitlock, Martin C. Alred, William Alred, George Grant, Darwin Chase, Elijah Newman, Alvin G. Tippetts, Zedekiah Owens, Isaac Morley, Thomas Buck, Moses Clawson, John J. Tanner, Daniel Shearer, Daniel S. Thomas. Alexander McRay, Elisha Edwards, John S. Higby, Ebenezer Page, Benjamin Covey, Ebenezer Robinson, Lyman Gibbs, James M. Henderson, David Pettigrew, Edward Partridge, Francis Higby, David Frampton, George Kimble, Joseph W. Younger, Henry Zabriskey, Allen J. Stout, Sheffield Daniels, Silas Manard, Anthony Head, Benjamin Jones, Daniel Carn, John T. Earl, and Norman Shearer; who were charged with the several crimes of high treason against the State, murder, burglary, arson, robbery, and larceny.

    Sampson Avard, a witness, produced, sworn, and examined, in behalf of the state, deposeth and saith:-- That about four months since, a band called the Daughters of Zion, (since called the Danite band,) was formed of the members of the Mormon church, the original object of which was to drive from the county of Caldwell all those who dissented from the Mormon church; in which they succeeded admirably, and to the satisfaction of all concerned. I consider Joseph Smith, jr., as the prime mover and organizer of this band. The officers of the band, according to their grades, were brought before him, at a school house, together with Hiram Smith and Sidney Rigdon; the three composing the first presidency of the whole church. It was stated by Joseph Smith, jr., that it was necessary this band should be bound together by a covenant, that those who revealed the secrets of the society should be put to death. The covenant taken by all the Danite band was as follows, to wit: They declared, holding up their right hand, "In the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, I do solemnly obligate myself ever to conceal and never to reveal the secret purposes of this society, called the Daughters of Zion. Should I ever do the same, I hold my life as the forfeiture." The prophet Joseph Smith, jr., together with his two counsellors, (Hiram Smith and Sidney Rigdon,) were considered as the supreme head of the church; and the Danite band feel themselves as much bound to

________________
Transcription of Avard testimony by Dale Broadhurst


 

---

                                              98                           [Fifth Judicial District, State of Missouri]
obey them as to obey the Supreme God. Instruction was given by Joseph Smith, jr., that if any of them should get into difficulty, the rest should help him out; and that they should stand by each other, right or wrong. This instruction was given at a Danite meeting, in a public address. As for Joseph Smith, jr., and his two counsellors, the witness does not know they ever took the Danite oath. He knows that all the rest of the defendants are Danites, except Sidney Tanner. Andrew Whitlock, Zedekiah Owens, Thomas Rich, John L. Tanner, Daniel S. Thomas, David Pettigrew, George Kimble, Anthony Head, Benjamin Jones, and Norman Shearer.

Document Containing the Correspondence, Orders, &C. In Relation to the Disturbances with the Mormons; and the Evidence Given before the Hon. Austin A. King, Judge of the Fifth Judicial Circuit of the State of Missouri, at the Court-house in Richmond, in a Criminal Court of Inquiry, Begun November 12, 1838, on the Trial of Joseph Smith, Jr., and Others, for High Treason and Other Crimes Against the State. Published By Order of the General Assembly. Printed at the office of the Boon's Lick Democrat. Fayette, Missouri: 1841.

[restornu]

Re post #81...apparently your advice is in one ear, out the other. "If you are thin-skinned, ignore the “open” threads. Don’t read them, don’t post on them. As Truman said, if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

We welcome the open threads and have developed VERY thick skin. It comes with the territory. I don't seen any pings to you from the Inman camp. In fact, I applaud your reserve on this thread, given the repeated whines to you. Thanks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

greyfoxx39, I was ping to this thread other wise I would not be here!

To: restornu; fproy2222; Saundra Duffy; Utah Girl; DelphiUser; oremites; Spiff; maui_hawaii; Grig; ... Ping.

2 posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 12:49:38 PM by Zakeet (Socialism is like prohibition, it's a good idea but it won't work.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse]

What's is wrong with door #2 it is a call to all Christians to follow Jesus?

[Grig]

“If your denomination attacks its critics for “hate”, you need to find another church. There is probably a very good reason for your church to be coming under criticism.”

John 15:18-20
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

[Grig]

Why not also post the parts documenting how several witnesses testified that Avard indicated that he would lie in order to incriminate the Church, how Avard was only cutting a deal for himself, how the supposed “Danite Constitution” had never been seen before by anybody in the group before then, and how his followers rejected him when his true intent was revealed etc. You can look those parts up following the references at http://en.fairmormon.org/Danites

[greyfoxx39]

greyfoxx39, I was ping to this thread other wise I would not be here!

Are you saying you didn't understand what kind of thread it was when you saw the title of the thread? Or that you had no idea what was going to be discussed???

 

What does "thin-skinned" mean to you anyway?

 

You should reconsider door no. 1,  "Thin skinned posters are like moths to a flame when it comes to "open" threads. They injure themselves.

Again I say. If you are thin-skinned, ignore the "open" threads. Don't read them, don't post on them. As Truman said, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

And stop your whining about how unfair the Religion Moderator is. The rules for "open threads" are clear and have been pointed out many times.

Here is a little reminder of your actions on this thread:

To: Grig; Religion Moderator

Tell that to the religion moderator some how he thinks it is just someone who has an ax to grind!

When another group tries to...

"Anti-Mormon is a fully accurate label for those who go out of their way to insult, attack, belittle and marginalize us."~ Grig

This is the samething they are doing to Rush Limbaugh trying to marginalize him so every time one see his name they have contempt to make the God given gift of Rush impotent

Right out of the Marxist hand book!

"The meaning is literal, anti is active opposition with intent to harm in some manner, not mere disagreement that respects the rights and dignity of others, and I don’t think any objective person would have a hard time finding a thread or two here that proves there are anti-Mormons and other kinds of anti’s here too." ~ Grig

52 posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 7:33:01 PM by restornu

 

To: Invincibly Ignorant; Religion Moderator

Hi II

When the LDS show a little out of character the nemesis are the first to call us on it, while they 24/7 pound on the LDS and the Church.

The LDS have to strive to keep the natural man in check as those who profess to be Christian do everything that is contrary as to how to treat your fellow man.

At no time did Jesus teach to bash those you disagree with, but in their mind this is how they justify their behavior.

I love the “clean hand theory” of course no one is perfect but some here get away with their ugly ness because the mods paints all with this broad brush!

There have been many observers who have posted on the open RF to mods how one sided this seems which seems to fall on death ears!

anyways thank for your support II!

63 posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 8:44:15 PM by restornu

 

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; Religion Moderator

I wish the RM were consistant either some here can be considered scribes and Sadusees, Pharisees, hypocrites and Sons of Perdition, devils, demons or NOT!

I don’t think anyone here should demonized another faith that just because each disagree with doctrine.

Now here are those things unless they are evil and only the Lord knows our hearts and minds.

I don’t beleive any conservative endorese the WCC which is a United Nation mind set type of people.

When Jesus spoke to certain types of groups he being the Son of God was able to read the hearts and minds of those who challenge him.

Jesus told those who follow Him, To Love One Another and also to love their enemies.

So many here have put the LDS in a position where the way many have treated the LDS have become the LDS nemesis!

In general none here on FR fit those “Woe unto you” just because some doctrine seem picular to others.

Our Jewish brethern Believe in the same God but not His Son the Christians beleive in God the Father, and His first born and Only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

Some believe in the 3 in one substance and others see the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in a literal sense as 3 personage.

All agree on the Ten Commandments but understand some portion of the doctrine differently, free will vs predestination, faith vs faith and works.

Jesus counsel to build, magneify and uplift one anothe not to fault find and tear down.

69 posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:45:28 PM by restornu

 

To: greyfoxx39; Grig; sevenbak; Spiff; Stourme; TChris; TheDon; fproy2222; Rameumptom; Reaganesque; ...

Resty, in giving the RM marching orders.....

****

That’s was how you try to spin it spoonful of sugar...

this kind of stuff was at one time not allowed to call another SOP or vipers or demons etc.

Also it is non productive in the conservative mission.

There is a different in saying one “IS” (SOP or vipers or demons) over one who ACTS like (SOP or vipers or demons)!

The LDS knows when engaging in the “tit for tat” than one is not adhearing to the Lord’s counsel.

If I remind the poster or the poster reminds me what is being said is not accurate or nice.

Is it not childish if either were to try to turn the words back on the poster, because the one doing the unkindness their pride could not receive it?

Does one truly think Jesus would appreciate that behavior.

Lot of what is being posted on RF is one side is trying to push the other sides button, which in is itself a very unChristian thing to do. (some will have the urge to turn these words)

I have confidents that Jesus will rid of those things in His kingdom that should not be there.

as children of God are we not to build up His kingdom and suuport one another where ever we are at in the scheme of things?

Man has a lot of worldly baggage and when they let the Lord teach them they learn how to dispose of things that is not of the Lord in their inventory.

Since I converted in 1982 I realized how much I have grown over the years that thoughts and ideas once held faded away and the Lord lifted the vail and I understand a better way.

as far as I am concern doctrine of the Lord never change but how man understands it does.

In other words doctrine is inmoveable that is not to say their is not grace and mercy, but that is according to intent and only the Lord can read the hearts and minds of another.

But man who is a work in progress will if with real intent will wax strong in the ways of the Lord, aquire more of the eyes of heaven understanding, instead of the eyes of the world.

78 posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 9:52:05 AM by restornu

 

 

Tell that to the religion moderator some how he thinks it is just someone who has an ax to grind!

[greyfoxx39]

Why not also post the parts documenting how......

As I said to Fred, go for it. I'm not here to whitewash Joseph Smith and his actions.

These discussions would be a lot more interesting and better if you mormons would just post historical rebuttals instead of whining because WE don't. As in this example

[fproy2222]

Did you check to see how your reference author misused the reference from the COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH?

=+=+=

Fred you are perfectly free to post any and all evidence you can find to refute Avard’s testimony at the “Criminel Court of Inquiry Of Joseoph Smith, Jr., and Others, for High Treason and Other Crimes Against the State”

+++++

Then you knowing choose to link to an ANTI-MORMON site that uses sloppy reference work?

[greyfoxx39]

What...you expect a pro-mormon post from me? Get real!

Let's see your proof of "sloppy reference work"...instead of whines. Just spend the time you waste complaining in real research, and bring it in a post.

[restornu]

Are you saying you didn’t understand what kind of thread it was when you saw the title of the thread? Or that you had no idea what was going to be discussed???

What does “thin-skinned” mean to you anyway?

You should reconsider door no. 1, “Thin skinned posters are like moths to a flame when it comes to “open” threads. They injure themselves.
Again I say. If you are thin-skinned, ignore the “open” threads. Don’t read them, don’t post on them. As Truman said, if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.”

And stop your whining about how unfair the Religion Moderator is. The rules for “open threads” are clear and have been pointed out many times.

***

So which are you more concern about being opposed to the teachings of Jesus Sermon on the mount or following Jesus?

[svcw]

How often do you view these threads. The entire ldser religion is based and formed on bashing Christians.

You owe me a key board, I spit my coffee all over it laughing at you post.

[Grig]

“When contending for LAND armies are always used”

Are you saying God in incapable of sending a legion or two of angles to take land, or that angles are too weak to pull something like that off? I think God is perfectly capable to doing what’s best for a given situation, and when circumstances are different you shouldn’t automatically expect the same method. There are plenty of examples of God working miracles to further the work of the Church and preserve and protect faithful members, but I think it would be foolish of anybody to assume they know the mind of God so well as to say what he would or should do in all cases and all circumstances.

“If Joseph Smith was right why did the Danites and Legion NOT control the areas of Missouri and Illinois but were driven out!”

Were they commanded to go and take the area by force? No. So if they had tried that it would have been contrary to God’s will. Even if they were commanded to do that, achieving it would depend on how faithful they were to God.

God allows men the freedom to choose to work for Him or against Him. Those who choose to oppose the kingdom of God do not stop the work from progressing, they only harm their own souls.

I see the fact that the Church has prevailed and prospered so well in the face of such constant hostility as evidence that Joseph was called of God. And it’s pretty simplistic to think that just being on the right side means everything is going to go the way you want or expect. There are countless examples in scripture of God’s people suffering at the hand of the wicked in one way or another, even for generations and generations.

As for Joseph’s death, I see nothing contrary to the nature of a prophet in defending the lives of his friends, both in terms of fighting for them when he could, and drawing the attackers away after. Do you consider the Biblical prophets who were stoned to death and killed in other ways to be false since no angles came to their rescue?

It might be a good idea to not build your arguments on a foundation of unbiblical assumptions about prophets.

[Grig]

“I’m not here to whitewash Joseph Smith and his actions.”

So providing a full account is a ‘whitewash’. Thanks for admiting his innocence in your own back-handed way.

It’s pretty clear what you are here for. Ironic given the article posted at the top.

Also, my testimony (and my ego) are not dependant on winning debates, especially against people who have no intention of giving a fair and impartial hearing to both sides. I gave you a link where you can begin to examine the rest of the story if you want. If you would rather not know I’m not going to force it on you.

[Tennessee Nana]

So which are you more concern about being opposed to the teachings of Jesus Sermon on the mount or following Jesus?
________________________________________

You first Resty...

Which is your choice ????