It amazes me how people can believe in a real live living spirit being they call “God” who is supposed to be all-caring and all-loving.
If such a being does exist, then how do these people explain massive suffering and death around this planet? Wouldn’t such an all-caring, all-loving, all-powerful “God” step in and prevent it?
The existence of massive suffering and death is all the proof any rational person needs that said alleged all-caring, all-loving, all-powerful “God” does NOT exist.
The more likely manifestation of “God” is higher principles. A set of higher principles.
That set of higher principles can exist in a world full of suffering and death. They are simply being ignored.
Love is one of those principles. Perhaps the highest one. Love for fellow man. Love for the planet we live on, the air we breathe, the water we drink, etc. “Caring” is a better word. Caring for fellow man. Caring for the planet we live on, the air we breathe, the water we drink, etc. That principle is being ignored.
How many people who claim to believe in “God” and in some cases “love God”, turn right around and routinely ignore the principle mentioned above?
Which would produce better results? Believing in “God” and even “loving God”, or following the principle mentioned above?
Some of the lousiest people I’ve ever met, the most dishonest people I’ve ever met, the lyingest people I’ve ever met, the most irrational and unstable people I’ve ever met, believe in “God” and claim to “love God.”
“God” is nothing more than a convenient excuse to be a lousy person. People who believe in “God” typically believe said “God” is going to give them a free pass into some “next life”, so they don’t have to put forth any effort to follow the higher principles I mentioned, and be good people in this life.
“It amazes me how people can believe in a real live living spirit being they call “God” who is supposed to be all-caring and all-loving. If such a being does exist, then how do these people explain massive suffering and death around this planet? Wouldn’t such an all-caring, all-loving, all-powerful “God” step in and prevent it? The existence of massive suffering and death is all the proof any rational person needs that said alleged all-caring, all-loving, all-powerful “God” does NOT exist. The more likely manifestation of “God” is higher principles. A set of higher principles. That set of higher principles can exist in a world full of suffering and death. They are simply being ignored. Love is one of those principles. Perhaps the highest one. Love for fellow man. Love for the planet we live on, the air we breathe, the water we drink, etc. “Caring” is a better word. Caring for fellow man. Caring for the planet we live on, the air we breathe, the water we drink, etc. That principle is being ignored.”
I doubt I can address this to your satisfaction but let’s start with rationalism. First, former atheist turned Christian writer C.S. Lewis pointed out in his writings that the very fact someone like you can look at a situation such as massive death and suffering and declare it “wrong” indicates a measuring rod for right and wrong outside man himself. Little matters like right and wrong are totally outside the realm of the animal kingdom. They only know what is, and instinct. Mankind, though, posits a standard outside itself to define right or wrong. The rod has different names: “higher principles”, “Light of Christ”, “spirituality”, they all define the measuring rod above any one person’s perception of right and wrong. “Love” happens to be one of those outside of mankind principles that requires someone to sacrifice their own good for the good of others in specific or others in general. We can’t even begin to define “love” without reference to something outside ourselves.
Now, let’s consider your accusation that a loving God would step in and prevent all those “wrongs” as defined by your rational “standard or measuring rod”. How would He do this? Would He prevent bad things like disease, war, crime happening at the moment such an act was about to hurt someone? Or would He lovingly remove from mankind any desire to commit the above? Or does He do both? Remove the desire for commit bad acts and prevent moment-to-moment the accidents that cause bad things? Should He still the wind so the sparrow won’t fall to the ground? Prevent rain from making roads slick? Should He stop freezing snow? What is “bad” or “unfortunate” is often good for someone else. (Just ask a kid about “snow days”) Should He just shield those who don’t like the effects of snow or rain or wind and leave nature alone for everyone else? In order to satisfy you, He would either have to create us as automatons He could move around at will at any moment or He could interfere with nature to the extent that chaos would reign in our lives. Talking in general about interfering with nature and consequences is fairly easy in the abstract and pretty thorny in the specific. In fact, the elevation of rationalism itself came about from abuses of people by those in power, whether religious or secular. As they say, it’s an ill wind that blows no one any good.
Third, “right” or “wrong” very much depends on perspective. My kids think I am “wrong” when I deny them their every heart’s desire and make them attend school or work for luxuries. My babies were sure I was mean for making them learn to walk and watching them fall when I could so easily carry them, and they were sure I was positively “evil” when I took them to the doctor and let the doctor stick them with sharp needles. God operates on an eternal perspective, one we can’t begin to comprehend, let alone bring down to a 21st Century mentality. In the same way my kids couldn’t understand the loving purpose behind immunizations, we can’t understand the loving purpose behind our Father and God allowing us to experience this world as it is, good and bad together.
I have found that most people (and I’m not saying this describes you) who use the “A loving God wouldn’t allow” justification is really using it as a cop-out. They don’t like the idea that God imposes rules and standards and commandments on them so they declare that if God were really alive and all-loving, He would control their every breath and thought so as to prevent bad things from happening to themselves or others. Now that’s a real rational approach.
If such a being does exist, then how do these people explain massive suffering and death around this planet? Wouldn’t such an all-caring, all-loving, all-powerful “God” step in and prevent it?
He is stepping in to prevent it.
More importantly, why would an all knowing, all righteous, all just, all present God send those who don't believe in Him to a place of eternal everlasting torment?
The answer is the same.
In his brilliant Plan, He has condemned man before He saved us. He provided everything required for our opportunity to live an eternal life in perfect righteousness and perfect justice, where death no longer reigns and joy is available to all.
Another good question is, why should God in His Perfect Holiness, which is His Perfect Righteousness and His Perfect Justice, endure unrighteousness and injustice in His presence forever?
The answer to that is also in His Plan. He doesn't. Nor does He require those whom He knows and loves to endure such unrighteousness and injustice eternally. In order to properly handle the situation He will Judge all things and will separate that which has no righteousness from that which does by His Perfect standards.
What are His perfect standards and Perfect Plan, one might ask?
That is why we read from His Word, how He communicates with us what He provides for us. Don't take my word for it, take His and study it.
Your house run’s on all DC?
I am sure that I cannot adequately respond to your statements, but I will try and respond to some of them. In confess that the source of my responses is my faith, and as such, they will be of no value to you. But my responses at least comfort me, and may comfort others. And if there is no God (my faith tells me there is, but I acknowledge that my faith could be wrong. It’s the best this human can do.) then what is the harm?
It strikes me that almost all of the good that there may be in this world requires that there be some bad/evil/pain/(dare I say “sin”?). What are the human qualities we admire? Courage— how could this exist without turmoil and danger? Healing— how could this exist without disease? Compassion— how could this exist without the suffering of others? Love and caring— these exist because the NEED for them exists.
Do we fail? Of course we do. Such failure can lead to redemption and grace, neither of which can exist without our human failings.
Many of us (myself included) view the world and our existence as if we were the center of the universe. In my best moments I recognize that God is at the center, and not me. Whoever said that man was the most important thing in the universe? Even the environmentalists concede that point (although they replace it with Mother Earth or Nature; wrongly, in my view).
I agree with you that many of the worst acting people I have known proclaim religious faith. But, most of the very best, most compassionate and loving people I have ever known also proclaim religious faith.
For me, if God’s existence were provable, where would be the need for faith? And I believe that faith is what God asks of us.
As for any disproof of God’s existence, that will require absolute human knowledge of all things. Any gap in knowledge leaves room for God’s existence.
As Jesus once said "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. "
1. One reason for suffering is that people nearly universally disregard God's commandments for how to live a blessed life. Even those who are non-believers can lesson their suffering by physically observing the 10 commandments. This won't lead to salvation, but it will make their lives easier. Deuteronomy 28 outlines the principle that Godly leaving lessens suffering.
2. Suffering isn't always bad if looked at from a long term perspective. For example if we touch something hot, we burn our finger. We suffer. We learn to avoid touching something hot when we suffer for it. Likewise suffering also can teach us what we need to know in this life and more importantly beyond this life. We learn compassion from suffering. So sometimes suffering is there as a teaching tool.
3. But even Christians can't avoid suffering:
2Ti 3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
Why? Because this isn't the world intended. Right now the kingdoms of the world belong to Satan. Before his death Christ said of Satan:
Joh 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.
This will change. The physical kingdoms will become Christ's at his return.
For a more detailed look read Why Does God Allow Suffering