Posted on 01/15/2009 9:50:50 AM PST by NYer
Original sin did spread from one, Adams and was redeemed by one, Christ. That is the Catholic teaching.
Two outstanding questions for you:
- whose blood was Mary quick to shed?
- where does the Scripture say that Jesus alone is without sin?
Do you understand the questions or do I need to explain something about them?
Okay. One last time, and I’m done. You won’t listen (or can’t), but here’s what I found:
Let’s visit Matthew 19:
“16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good.”
This is Jesus talking. Who is the one? Mary? Joseph? No...God. And, since Jesus is God the Son, and already proven sinless by a previous post, ONLY CHRIST was sinless on this earth. Adam and Eve were CREATED sinless, but they sinned. Jesus, God’s Son, did not ever sin. And since God is the only ‘one’ who is good — only Christ.
As for the appeal to bloodshed, that is one example of sinfulness. But that’s obfuscatory in itself - -BY DEFINITION, Mary was born. Since she was born, she was born IN SIN. And, let’s look at one last verse:
Luke 1:47:
“47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,”
Her spirit rejoiced in God HER SAVIOR. If she was born sinless, she did not require salvation; she was without sin. Christ came to save the sinners (all of us who are predestined, called, etc.) not the sinless. But, since Mary said herself that her spirit rejoiced in God HER SAVIOR, she herself recognized her sinfulness and need of a savior.
Now. I’m done. I hope God will open your heart to him.
Hoss
Yes, only God is ontoligical good. The good in the created world comes from God alone. The same passage though concludes that man can become “perfect” (Matthew 19:21) with God (v. 26).
This doesn’t prove that Mary wasn’t perfect in the same way the rich man could become perfect had he followed Jesus. The Bible describes Noah as perfect (Gen 6:9).
Regarding Mary needing her savior, it is about the fifth time I explain to you that she most certainly did, but sinfulness does not follow from that.
You cannot win this argument. The Protestant edifice is a house of cards, built on Luther’s theological fantasies. Its foundation contradicts scripture. What the Church teaches today, she has tought for two thousand years. The Fathers of the Church wrote the New Testament and reflected over the scripture for ages, and their lives were dedicated to the pursuit of the truth. There is nothing that the Church teaches, and she teaches sinlessness of Mary, that is not built on solid rock. Those who try to knock it down make fools of themselves. You are not the first and probably not the last.
Such a sweeping statement of untruth I cannot imagine. The only foolish one in appearance here is you — you ignore scripture to the benefit of tradition, you mock God and you gloat in it.
There is no argument to win or lose. That’s already been done by Christ on the cross. If you refuse it, that’s your choice. One last scripture for you to consider. I will end my postings on this topic here (although I intended to earlier, the tripe that was posted required rebuttal):
Galatians 3:
“2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
And that in fact is the question you need to consider. I don’t want an answer. But God does.
Take care — I’ve enjoyed it in as much as for contending for the truth. I wish you well.
Hoss
1 And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place: 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them: 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak. 5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem, Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.6 And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. 7 And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these, that speak, Galileans? 8 And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome,
11 Jews also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all astonished, and wondered, saying one to another: What meaneth this? 13 But others mocking, said: These men are full of new wine. 14 But Peter standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spoke to them: Ye men of Judea, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known to you, and with your ears receive my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day:
16 But this is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel: 17 And it shall come to pass, in the last days, (saith the Lord,) I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And upon my servants indeed, and upon my handmaids will I pour out in those days of my spirit, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above, and signs on the earth beneath: blood and fire, and vapour of smoke. 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and manifest day of the Lord come.
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.
(Acts 2)
This is why she is the pillar and ground of truth (1 Timothy 3:15)
Rom 5:20-21 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Nice try, but we can read. It says sin and grace do coexist.
WHERE sin increased GRACE abounded all the more. Both being present.
AS sin REIGNED....grace ALSO MIGHT REIGN.........both present again
Thanks for the verses that help prove that God grace does not prevent sin it is given in spite of sin. That is Grace!
brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. (2 Peter 1:10)
I looked in 53 translations and only one uses the word sin all the others use fall or stumble or fall away from your faith (the latter one is from a Catholic bible BTW :-0 )
G4417 πταίω ptaiō ptah'-yo A form of G4098; to trip, that is, (figuratively) to err, sin, fail (of salvation): - fall, offend, stumble.
I could find no place in the NT testament that ptaio is called sin.
G266 ἁμαρτία hamartia ham-ar-tee'-ah From G264; sin (properly abstract): - offence, sin (-ful).
G264 ἁμαρτάνω hamartanō ham-ar-tan'-o Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.
Are the greek words denoting sin. And where they are used it is translated sin.
And then...
G361 ἀναμάρτητος anamartētos an-am-ar'-tay-tos From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G264; sinless: - that is without sin.
anamartētos the greek word for sinless: - that is without sin. That is the word Peter would have used not ptaio if he wanted to say without sin.
============
Hence her immaculate conception. Now, that is something the scripture doesn't directly say. But the Catholic Church teaches that, because that is the revealed truth of the Holy Tradition.
Tradition is not Holy if it calls the Word of God a lie and that is what we have here.
======================
where does the Scripture say that Jesus alone is without sin?
Scriptures Jesus never sinned. Heb 4:15 - 2 Cor 5:21
And then Rom 3:23 tells us - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
We know Rom 3:23 is not speaking of Jesus for the Word tells us He never sinned, so since all others have sinned as Rom 3:23 tells us, only Jesus is without sin.
Luke 1:47:
“47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,”
Her spirit rejoiced in God HER SAVIOR. If she was born sinless, she did not require salvation; she was without sin. Christ came to save the sinners (all of us who are predestined, called, etc.) not the sinless. But, since Mary said herself that her spirit rejoiced in God HER SAVIOR, she herself recognized her sinfulness and need of a savior.
Now. I’m done. I hope God will open your heart to him.
Hoss
Thanks Hoss that was good teaching.
Yes, in both of these passages (Rom 5:20-21 and 2 Peter 1:10) the formal reading allows for you to argue that. Of course, you would then have to disregard the intended meaning.
Grace abounds more where sin abounds. Why? Because grace conquers sin. Do you disagree?
The disciple will not stumble. But he would sin? Makes no sense. 2 Peter 2:10 means that not only will he not sin, he will not even stumble. The intended meaning is stronger.
Mary needed her savior but that does not prove that she committed a sin. There are two ways to save someone: by absolving the sin or by giving grace not to sin.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.