Posted on 01/15/2009 9:50:50 AM PST by NYer
.- A new survey of denominational loyalty reports that churchgoing Catholics are significantly less likely than churchgoing Protestants to change denominations.
Six out of ten active Catholics would only consider attending a Catholic church, while about 30 percent would prefer attending a Catholic church but would consider others, the survey says. Eleven percent of churchgoing Catholics reportedly do not show a specific preference for attending a Catholic church.
By contrast, only 16 percent of Protestant churchgoers will only consider attending a church of their present denomination. About 51 percent express a preference for one denomination, while 33 percent do not have any preference for a specific denomination.
Phoenix-based Ellison Research released the results of the poll on Monday.
“The good news for the Catholic church is that six out of ten Catholics will not even consider attending church in any other denomination, which is far higher than for Protestants. The bad news, of course, is that four out of ten active Catholics would at least be open to another denomination, even though most would prefer to remain in the Catholic Church,” commented Ron Sellers, president of Ellison Research.
The survey of a representative sample of 1,007 American adults included 471 respondents who regularly attend worship services at a church broadly considered to be in the Christian tradition, categorized into Protestant, Roman Catholic, Mormon, and Orthodox.
Respondents who attend worship services at least once a month were first asked the specific denomination of the church they attend most often. This distinguished “Southern Baptist” from “Free Will Baptist,” for example.
The respondents were then asked what role that denomination would play if they could no longer attend their current church, in the case it closed or the respondent moved.
Sellers explained that there may be additional factors affecting the difference between Catholic and Protestant denominational loyalty.
“It’s not as though there are two hundred different Roman Catholic denominations,” he said. “On the Protestant side, there are scores of different denominations, with some of them fairly similar in practice and theology.
“The story of this research is that many Protestants may not see a lot of difference among some of these denominations,” Sellers said.
For comparison, Ellison Research asked Americans about their loyalty to certain brands in more than 32 categories of products and services. Respondents expressed between about 10 to 20 percent exclusive loyalty to brands like automobiles or toothpaste, while between about 60 to 70 percent reported a brand preference.
Respondents were especially loyal to toothpaste, with 22 percent saying they use one brand exclusively.
“It may not be lack of loyalty so much as it is the presence of so many options that is causing Protestants to be about as loyal to a brand of toothpaste or bathroom tissue as they are to their church denomination,” Sellers remarked.
Among all churchgoing respondents, three out of ten said they would only consider attending one denomination, while 44 percent said they have one preferred denomination but would also consider others. Eleven percent reported a small number of denominations they would consider.
According to the survey results, denominational loyalty does not vary significantly by gender, household income, age, or type of community. It does vary by race or ethnicity and by region of the United States.
Hispanic churchgoers, who are majority Catholic, are the most intensely loyal to their denomination. African-Americans reportedly have the least denominational loyalty.
Denominational loyalty is highest in the Northeast U.S., where Catholicism is more common than elsewhere in the country. Such loyalty is lowest in the South, where Catholicism is less common.
People who report attending a non-denominational church, the Ellison Research survey says, are actually more committed to remaining non-denominational than churchgoers in Protestant denominations are to staying within their denomination. About 29 percent of non-denominational churchgoers will only consider a non-denominational church, while 32 percent express a preference for a non-denominational church.
“There is no salvation outside of the Church.”
So, the Church trumps God.
Very wrong, very sad. Nothing in scripture about that. It does say there is no salvation outside of God!
Hoss
The good thief episode, in connection with multiple verses pointing to necessity of baptism allow us to infer that a desire to be with Christ alone can substitute for baptism. Likewise, we believe that the patriarchs of the Old Testament were justified by Christ without recourse to baptism. Remember, Christ owns His sacraments; the sacraments don't own Him.
Again, the Church is not constrained by the condition to find everything directly spelled out in the scripture; that condition itself is unbiblical.
Romans 3:20-28 indeed explains that we ar saved as a gift of divine grace, which we receive by faith. It further explains that works of the law or works done for a reward (boasting) play no role in that. I am Catholic; I agree with everything St. Paul wrote, here and elsewhere. He did not say that works of love play no role in salvation, because other scripture plainly teaches that they decide salvation.
Going on to your following posts.
There are many verses in scripture that explain that salvation is a life long process.
the Lord will hear your prayers, if you continue with perseverance in fastings and prayers in the sight of the Lord (Judith 4)But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved. (Mark 13:13)
but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.(Matthew 10:22, repeated in Matthew 24:13)
faith and a good conscience, which some rejecting have made shipwreck concerning the faith. (1 Timothy 1:19)
As you can see faith can be gained or lost and salvation comes to those who endure to the end. It is a process. This is not to say that there are no significant events on your journey, just that no one can presume that he is already saved, without committing a sin of presumption.
Baptism CANNOT save
The scripture teaches the opposite:
baptism being of the like form [of water], now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 3:21)
the Church trumps God
The Church is of God (Mt. 16:16, Eph. 5:23, Col 1:18. 1 Ti 3:15). Can idols save you?
“1 Cor. 3:9-15 is sufficient evidence for Purgatory: it describes the purgatorial process.”
Actually it is not. There is NO evidence for inference of purgatory. At all. Here it is:
9For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
If you would read the preceding verses, you would see there was a concern that some were followers of Paul, others of Apollos — Paul said he planted, Apollos watered, and God gave the growth. So, in the above, Paul, with God’s grace, is building a foundation — Jesus Christ — and if you continue to read, you’ll see that if others lay foundations that are NOT by God’s grace, those foundations will be proven faulty by fire. The WORKS are judged — not the soul. No where there are the souls of the “waiting to be saved” ever mentioned. What you HAVE done is to, once again, twist the scripture and add to it. Not good.
“The good thief episode, in connection with multiple verses pointing to necessity of baptism allow us to infer that a desire to be with Christ alone can substitute for baptism. Likewise, we believe that the patriarchs of the Old Testament were justified by Christ without recourse to baptism. Remember, Christ owns His sacraments; the sacraments don’t own Him.”
They do no such thing. The good thief needed no baptism of water. Neither do we. The baptism of water is an outward sign of our faith and trust. The “desire” to be with Christ can only be had when we are justified, our hearts turned to God through his grace — saved by him — otherwise, our nature is to abhor the things of God as the unsaved are lost to sin. Again, this is a man-made doctrine by the Catholic Church. It’s not of God. It’s not in his word. Sorry. Try again.
“Again, the Church is not constrained by the condition to find everything directly spelled out in the scripture; that condition itself is unbiblical.”
Yup. the “Church” isn’t constrained by anything of God, then. The scripture is fit for instruction, doctrine and reproof. If you’re going to use scripture for those things, don’t you think you should make sure that inference is going to be well-founded? Accurate? Oops...forgot. “Holy Tradition” makes that unnecessary. Again, God is sovereign; not the Catholic Church.
“Romans 3:20-28 indeed explains that we ar saved as a gift of divine grace, which we receive by faith. It further explains that works of the law or works done for a reward (boasting) play no role in that. I am Catholic; I agree with everything St. Paul wrote, here and elsewhere. He did not say that works of love play no role in salvation, because other scripture plainly teaches that they decide salvation.”
You were doing okay until you hit works. Keep reading. He said that works play NO role in salvation!!! Works don’t save. Keep trying. Eph. 2:8-9; remember the part that says, “and NOT of works so no one can boast.”?
“There are many verses in scripture that explain that salvation is a life long process.
the Lord will hear your prayers, if you continue with perseverance in fastings and prayers in the sight of the Lord (Judith 4)
Judith? Not canon. But, God does hear prayers — I do agree with that. But it says nothing else. At least in that context.
But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved. (Mark 13:13) Out of context. Disciples asking about the signs of Christ’s coming. Saved from what? Endure to the end of what?
but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.(Matthew 10:22, repeated in Matthew 24:13) Discussing the end of the age and tribulation. Again, out of context.
faith and a good conscience, which some rejecting have made shipwreck concerning the faith. (1 Timothy 1:19) Read back a bit. Again, taken out of context.
As you can see faith can be gained or lost and salvation comes to those who endure to the end. It is a process. This is not to say that there are no significant events on your journey, just that no one can presume that he is already saved, without committing a sin of presumption.”
All out of context. Sorry. You..must..read..in..context. Sin of presumption? And that is located where?
“The scripture teaches the opposite:
baptism being of the like form [of water], now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 3:21)”
Actually, it does not. Taken out of context, it could be “inferred” to teach that. The like form — the water, or the ark that Noah entered by faith? Christ’s suffering noted in v.18? It’s difficult, but look back to v. 18 — it speaks of Christ’s suffering. I do not have the great theological teaching that others may, but I know that scripture cannot contradict itself — and that justification by grace through faith saves. Water does not. Nice try, though.
“The Church is of God (Mt. 16:16, Eph. 5:23, Col 1:18. 1 Ti 3:15). Can idols save you?”
The catholic (universal) church IS of God. The saved are the church. The Catholic Church is a man-made edifice. Just like my brick and mortar church down the road. Nothing more. As for idols, I would actually ask YOU that — I don’t venerate icons, statuary or pray to “saints” — I pray to the Triune God Almighty alone through the shed blood of his Son. For he alone saves. He is sovereign. So, instead of asking me, ask that of yourself.
Hoss
Not the foundation: the entire building is proven: "work that anyone has built on the foundation".
You are correct that the work is judged, -- we are judged by our works, but that is not disproving the fact that it is the person himself who is saved through the prugatorial fire: "he himself will be saved, but only as through fire". Works do not hang in the air -- they are attached to the person being saved. It is about third time you make that mistake on this thread. Please explain to me how works can be judged without the worker of the works being judged.
The good thief needed no baptism of water. Neither do we
That is your opinion. There is no scriptural foundation for it.
The scripture is fit for instruction, doctrine and reproof
That it is. This is why we test the Catholic doctrine by scripture. So far, I have shown you scripture in context and you spin selected verses to justify your theological fantasies. for example, the doctrine of salvation by faith alone is flatly contradicted by scripture, and so is the notion that we don't need baptism.
He said that works play NO role in salvation
No he didn't. St. Paul said that works of law play no role in salvation. Works of love play critical role in salvation, as the remainder of the letter, among other scriptures, shows: "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service ... if thy enemy be hungry, give him to eat; if he thirst, give him to drink" (Ch. 12).
All out of context. Sorry. You..must..read..in..context. Sin of presumption? And that is located where?
Mark 13, Matthew 10 and 24 indeed describe the trubulations the Church is to undergo, and promise salvation to those who endure it. But they do not promise physical salvation from the suffering. Matthew 10:28, for example, makes it quite clear. The context of St. Paul's "shipwreck" remark is not relevant to the argument: this is an example of someone who had faith and then lost it.
The sin of presumption is described in the story of the praying pharisee and a publican (Luke 18).
Actually, it does not
I don't understand what you are saying in that paragraph. How v 18 makes St. Peter's clear teaching on baptism in v 21 say anything other than what it says: baptism saves?
justification by grace through faith saves
Let's not get sloppy here. Justification by grace through faith indeed saves (Eph. 2), but that does not exclude the role of works, including sacramental works, in forming that faith.
The Catholic Church is a man-made edifice.
That's not what the scripture says.
I don’t venerate icons, statuary or pray to “saints”
Therefore your worship of God is grossly deficient. I would especially recommend that you pray to the Holy Evangelists so that they open up the scripture for you, and to the Blessed Virgin Mary who brought the eternal Word to you.
“Therefore your worship of God is grossly deficient. I would especially recommend that you pray to the Holy Evangelists so that they open up the scripture for you, and to the Blessed Virgin Mary who brought the eternal Word to you.”
Well, this statement takes the cake. If my worship of God is deficient because I pray to someone OTHER than God Almighty, then I’m flummoxed. If Catholicism is based on this kind of false-teaching, then I fear for your soul... I fear for everyone’s soul that believes this tripe!
Worshipping God is deficient because I fail to pray to Mary? You MUST be kidding. Well, no, you’re not. Mary was born a fallen, sinful person just like you and me. The Lord saw fit to send Christ into the world through her. But that doesn’t make her anything other than saved — just like those who believe by faith. And just to make sure... did Mary bring Christ to us, or did the Holy Spirit?
I hope and pray that the Lord will be kind to you, open your heart to him, and show you that faith alone in his son Jesus is all you need. I sincerely do. Then, I will rejoice because you will be saved. Unless or until that happens, however, I fear for your poor lost soul.
Please stop trusting in a fallible, man-made institution and realize that God Almighty is sovereign! His word is infallible, and the Holy Spirit bringing it to your eyes and mind brings his word to you. You can have a personal relationship with Christ! You don’t have to go through unnecessary and unbiblical intermediaries.
Best of luck and I will indeed pray, DIRECTLY to God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit that he will have mercy upon your soul and open your heart to him.
Hoss
If you worship Christ, then you should not flee the company of His friends in heaven, His mother Mary and all the saints.
Especially if you profess an interest in the Holy Scripture.
The least you should do is avoid insulting the Blessed Mother. She a sinful person? What was her sin?
“If you worship Christ, then you should not flee the company of His friends in heaven, His mother Mary and all the saints.”
Flee their company? Please. You’re equating them with God which is idolatry.
“Especially if you profess an interest in the Holy Scripture”
That’s why I DO NOT venerate or worship anyone but God Almighty. That’s what the scripture says to do. That’s God’s command. You should try it.
“The least you should do is avoid insulting the Blessed Mother. She a sinful person? What was her sin?”
I wasn’t insulting her — she was a sinner! However, you do insult God by worshipping/venerating her. As to her sin? She was human. Born with the sin we are all born with. Original sin.
Romans 3:21-24:
“21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,”
Note that there is “no distinction” ALL HAVE SINNED and fallen SHORT of the glory of God and ARE JUSTIFIED by his grace as a gift...”
It doesn’t say, “all have sinned, except Mary, and all, except Mary have fallen short...” All the hoodoo of Holy Tradition won’t change the fact that we are all sinners.
ALL HAVE SINNED. Including Mary. And Joseph. You. Me. And it all started with Adam. The only sinless person to have ever lived is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Mary believed and had faith. That is what saved her. God’s grace.
Once again, you are being prayed for. Turn to Christ and him alone. Anything more is unbiblical.
Hoss
Her sin started with being born, being a human, all who are fallen, then sinned as everyone else for SHE IS NOT GOD! And it is not us Christians that insult Mary, we love her as the mother of Jesus, but you who make her into what she is not, that both insults God and her. Her faith is in Christ too, not your religion.
1 Cor 15: 20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Mary died. Only Jesus Who was more than a man, He is God and never sinned. And yes He died but without sin, which the Bible makes much of over and over. Yet on Mary nothing about her being without sin, because she is not without sin. Again she is not God, so she cannot be without sin.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. Rom 5:17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
BTW - When you repudiate the Word of God you repudiate God.
Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, Rom 3:30 since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. p Included the rest of Romans 3 because it also tells us we are saved by faith and not works.
Gal 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Works (law) has not faith, it cancels out any possibility of faith. The Hebrews could not justify themselves through works and here you are trying to all over again. By faith they were justified. You have the same problem as Cain. Do you not understand why Cain's offering was not accepted? Read the account in Genesis and then read Hebrews 11.
You made very similar posts, so I will give a universal answer, and please feel free to follow up as you feel like.
First, the hypothesis of sinfullness of any saint is not an impediment of venerating him or her. The saints are venerated because (1) they are with Christ and can, and do, pray for us (Apoc 5:8, 8:3-4) and (2) because they with their lives give us courage and example of how to live our lives. Mary and possibly John the Baptist aside, we do make the assumption that the saints have sinned at some points in their lives. Often we have a record of their sins, some small, some big. Most popular Christian saints are known also for their weaknesses; St. Jerome spent countless days repenting for sins of the flesh; so did St. Augustine; St. Nicholas had assaulted Arius physically; St. Peter denounced Christ, and all apostles but St. John the Theologian fled after Jesus was arrested. The fact that most saints overcame significant sins makes them a shining example for us and is a testomony to the power of Christ’s grace. This is why ignoring the lives of saints, refusing to venerate them, resisting their prayers — is a defect of Christian faith. When you proclaim with such passion that it is by faith alone you consider yourselves (I speak collectively to Protestans and not personally) saved, and in the same breath you refuse to venerate the Church Triumphant, the question arises: where, exactly, is your faith?
When you accuse your fellow Christians of idolatry based on the stuff you don’t understand and have no desire to learn — where is your shame?
Did Mary ever committed a personal sin? The scripture surely does not record one (it records the considerable weaknesses of all other apostles). The Holy Tradition knows her to be without sin. Logic demands it: why would Christ inhabit a less than perfect mother? Why would the angel describe her as filled with grace (Luke 1:28). The usual prooftext is in Romans 3, “all have sinned”, where a sweeping characterization of the human race without the grace of Christ is given us. Two things demolish that as a supposed prooftext of sinfullness of Mary.
First, that describes the human race without Christ. But Mary was made to be the mother of Christ; it is difficult to see how Christ — who she calls her Savior even before the Cross (Luke 1:47) could not save her from the sin by way of prevention rather than by way of absolution.
Secondly, that passage in Romans 3 cannot be read as a prooftext of anyone’s sinfulness in particular. The language is clearly generalized and overemphasized. To read that as a literal description of everyone’s fallen nature, we also have to conclude that Mary was “quick to shed blood”, did not seek God, etc. But many people in fact never enjoyed shedding anyone’s blood and seek God. Some are described as “filled with grace” (Mary) or “just and perfect man” (Noah). It is fair to assume that you and your own pastor sincerely seek God and did not murder anyone. This passage means what St. Paul intended it to mean: that as a general proposition men are inclined to gross sin without the grace of Christ.
So all who’s sins are not recorded in the bible are without sin...sinless? Are you serious? Actually physically shook my head when I read your reply.
No the Word of God states, “ALL have sinned .........and Mary is one of the all.”
If Mary had not sinned and that is not possible if you understood why Christ had to come and die for our sins, the bible would make much of such a life. Theology aside, it would be amazing, a human being, a fallen offspring of Adam without sin! The bible would proclaim it loudly and largely. Yet there is no mention of it.
Mary full of grace. Brings us back to your not understanding God’s grace. She would not need God’s grace if she had no sin, why she would have done as no other person had ever done and in contradiction to God’s own words that all had sinned. She would be God and God would be a liar.
For most adults we can assume that at least some sin was committed by them whether recorded in the Bible or not, based precisely on the grim portrait of human fallen nature in Romans 3. But for Mary and for John the Baptist we can decude from the Bible that their sanctification was complete already in their mother’s wombs by Christ (Luke 1:28, 47, 41) and due to the merits of Christ, and not their own, they did not commit any actual sins in their lives. It is also reasonable to believe that Noah never committed a sin, because the bible calls him “perfect in every way”.
The Church only teaches that Mary was sinless, leaving the sinlessness of John and Noah to the individual interpretation, but I am talking simply from the scripture.
“First, the hypothesis of sinfullness of any saint is not an impediment of venerating him or her. The saints are venerated because (1) they are with Christ and can, and do, pray for us (Apoc 5:8, 8:3-4) and (2) because they with their lives give us courage and example of how to live our lives”
Not from canon... sorry. Saints worship the Living God. Who venerates these people? Fallen, sinful humans do. Man cannot make “saints” — only God does.
“This is why ignoring the lives of saints, refusing to venerate them, resisting their prayers — is a defect of Christian faith”
Uh, no. The defect exists in venerating someone/thing OTHER THAN GOD. I cannot resist their prayers; they have no sway over me. Only God Almighty does! To pray “to” them is to worship them. To worship them is to commit idolatry. Simple.
“When you accuse your fellow Christians of idolatry based on the stuff you don’t understand and have no desire to learn — where is your shame?”
That is the question that you should ask yourself: I try to contend for the faith. There is no shame in truth; however, there should be (and is) shame in idolatry. Note when the Disciples asked the Lord to teach them to pray, did Jesus tell them, “pray like this: Our Father, the Saints, etc., etc.”??? NO! He instructed the Disciples (and us) to pray to God. Not saints. Period. So, please, think about this. And, as an aside, I find it slightly ironic that you tell me that I cannot be saved outside “The Church,” yet appeal to me as a a fellow Christian to have shame for calling you out on your sin! I hope your mind is changing!!!
“Did Mary ever committed a personal sin? The scripture surely does not record one (it records the considerable weaknesses of all other apostles). The Holy Tradition knows her to be without sin. Logic demands it: why would Christ inhabit a less than perfect mother? Why would the angel describe her as filled with grace (Luke 1:28). The usual prooftext is in Romans 3, “all have sinned”, where a sweeping characterization of the human race without the grace of Christ is given us. Two things demolish that as a supposed prooftext of sinfullness of Mary.”
Yes. She was born. ALL HAVE SINNED. “Holy Tradition” is a concoction of men — it’s not scriptural! God chose her because he chose her — we don’t know his mind. She was filled with grace.. true! But SO IS EVERY CHRISTIAN. Does that make me sinless and perfect? Not in the least. Mary was a sinner. There is NOTHING in scripture to indicate her sinlessness. Were she to have been sinless, then God would be a liar. God is perfect — we are not. NONE of were or are, with the exception of Christ incarnate.
“who she calls her Savior even before the Cross (Luke 1:47) “
David called God his savior too... FAITH, FAITH, FAITH!!! Keep saying it over and over... hopefully it will stick.
“Secondly, that passage in Romans 3 cannot be read as a prooftext of anyone’s sinfulness in particular. “
That made me laugh out loud. Please note that “all” means... all. The language is PLAIN and simple to understand, if you would just allow it to be simple instead of twisting it around the mish-mash of “Holy Tradition.”
You can’t ignore the obvious. Or maybe you can. I cannot. The scripture is God’s Word...holy tradition is man-made and subject to man’s fallen nature. Scripture trumps all; and scripture does not support your positions.
Again, continuing to pray to the Lord for you...
Hoss
“The Church only teaches that Mary was sinless, leaving the sinlessness of John and Noah to the individual interpretation, but I am talking simply from the scripture.”
Just a little contradiction — The Catholic Church may teach that falsehood, but scripture does not teach that. Anywhere. As noted before, the scripture teaches that ALL have sinned and fallen short. ALL.
Hoss
What, Apocalypse is not from the Protestant canon? You cut more books out? Why should I be surprised.
In fact, we do not venerate God, we worship God. You guys don't. When we offer the sacrifice of the Mass to anyone other than God, then you can say that we worship that person. Or, when you repent of the Protestant heresies, get yourself legitimate priests and start the required of you sacrifice of the Mass yourself, that is when you, too, will be worshiping God.
Veneration of saints is like I explained, praising them, making example of them and asking for their prayers. A distinct thing altogether, and it is a form of worshiping God.
Indeed, Christ taught us to pray Our Father. Now I have the question to you: Who, do you think the "we" in "our Father" is? I know who: the communion of Saints is who we pray with. We follow the Bible, you (as a comminity of faith and not personally) follow your pride.
You misunderstood or skipped altogether my comments about Mary and her supposed sin, and the depravity of man described in Romans 3. Please re-read and come back to me.
continuing to pray to the Lord for you
Thank you. You do the work of the saints. That is a good thing. "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men" (1 Timothy 2:1).
“You just iterated your previous errors.”
Actually, no; you refuse to see yours in light of scripture.
“In fact, we do not venerate God, we worship God. You guys don’t. When we offer the sacrifice of the Mass to anyone other than God, then you can say that we worship that person. Or, when you repent of the Protestant heresies, get yourself legitimate priests and start the required of you sacrifice of the Mass yourself, that is when you, too, will be worshiping God.”
Uh, no once again. If you worship God (as I and all Christians do), you worship him alone — he is a jealous God. Prayer is a form of worship. I pray to God Almighty through the shed blood Christ. I do not pray to Mary, Joseph, or St. Vitus. Or ANY “saint.” If you pray to a saint, you do MORE than venerate them; you worship them. And, that, regardless of whether you want to agree or not, IS idolatry. No distinction. If you praise them, you are praising them IN ADDITION to God, which is idolatry. As for heresies, well, that made me laugh out loud again. But, we’ll leave it at that.
“Indeed, Christ taught us to pray Our Father. Now I have the question to you: Who, do you think the “we” in “our Father” is? I know who: the communion of Saints is who we pray with. We follow the Bible, you (as a comminity of faith and not personally) follow your pride.”
Who are the we? I just said it above — ALL OF THE SAVED. Those are the Saints, not some bunch of folks that a pope in Rome waived his hands about and declared to be special. Doesn’t work that way. As for pride, I repent of it daily; but I don’t follow it. I follow Christ and him crucified; I believe the Bible is God’s Word — I don’t put faith in a fallen, sinful pope. Pride? Not hardly. Truth? Absolutely.
“You misunderstood or skipped altogether my comments about Mary and her supposed sin, and the depravity of man described in Romans 3. Please re-read and come back to me.”
Already been there. How about you read it and not twist it? Mary was not exempted by God. Either she was exempted (and God is a liar — which he cannot be), or we are ALL FALLEN. Including Mary, Joseph, the Disiciples, the Apostles, each and every one of us. So, re-read it yourself, and then tell me: do you dispute God’s Word? If you claim anyone other than Christ was sinless, then you are denying God’s Word. And as Free Life posted above, you deny God’s Word, you deny him. And that’s sad.
Hoss
Here's the relavant passage, the First Commandment:
3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me: 6 And showing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.(Exodus 20)
So it is clear that God visits iniquity on those who fail to worship Him (a warning to those of you who do not have proper worship); He shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments ("if you love me, keep my commandments", Christ said, proclaiming once more the salvific nature of works of love); do not worship false gods. It is of false gods that the Lord is jealous. Of those who love Him, like the Catholic saints, the Lord is not jealous, He loves them back. They are His best creation. To make out of this the blasphemous fiction that God is jealous of His own mother or His chosen apostles, or any of His saints is the height of scriptural illiteracy. Nowhere does the scripture show Jesus with a slightest hint of jealousy; when people came to venerate His mother He asked them to venerate all the saints as well (Lk 11:28). He gave us his mother as our own (Jn 19:27).
Mary was not exempted by God
Yeah, right. So whom was Mary quick to murder (Rm. 3:15)?
Talk about warping and twisting... God is a jealous God. I stated that because it’s in the scripture — just as you note — but then you proceed to infer that I meant that Jesus was jealous of his disciples! And then you accuse me scriptural illiteracy! My, my, my. And this is exactly the problem you’re dealing with: I appeal to the scripture. God is jealous; we are to worship HIM ALONE! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit — NO ONE ELSE. No one else deserves worship! Did Mary create us? Did St. Vitus speak into existence the universe? Did Joseph create the angels? NO. NO. NO. God alone. Please show me in scripture (not Holy Tradition hoodoo) where God says to pray TO someone other than him. You instead appeal to Tradition. The Catholic Church says to do thus and so.
That, I’m afraid, is the ultimate indicator of scriptural illiteracy; that being the subjugation of God’s word to man’s made-up traditions.
Your reference to Romans 3:15 doesn’t answer the question: where in scripture does it say Mary (or any other human) was EVER exempted from original sin? Please — chapter and verse.
Hoss
So who is God jealous of? I pray to His saints. Is He jealous of them?
Romans 3:15 shows that “all have sinned” a few verses down is a generalization that does not automatically apply to everyone. If it were, then Romans 3:15 would also apply to everyone, and so I ask, whose blood was Mary swift to shed?
Mary’s exception from all forms of sin is in Luke 1:28, “Hail, full of grace”.
You may get away with saying such nonsense here, but you won't before God. Does that not concern you?
Twisting and turning Gods Word to suit your doctrines. It is one thing to honestly misunderstand or even honestly misinterpret Gods Word but to purposefully preach to others what it most clearly does not say to make a doctrine that is evil in God's sight, is well evil.
Do you not understand that if God decided to create someone who would be without sin who is spoken of in the bible, He would have it spoken of loudly in the bible? This is no little thing, without sin. It is huge, it changes everything about man's redemption and Christ payment for sin on the cross.
“So who is God jealous of? I pray to His saints. Is He jealous of them?
Romans 3:15 shows that “all have sinned” a few verses down is a generalization that does not automatically apply to everyone. If it were, then Romans 3:15 would also apply to everyone, and so I ask, whose blood was Mary swift to shed?
Mary’s exception from all forms of sin is in Luke 1:28, “Hail, full of grace”.”
Again... and again... and again. READ.
ALL means ALL. It’s not like Bill Clinton’s discussion of what “is” means... For ALL HAVE SINNED. Again, I ask you — where is Mary exempted? “Hail, full of grace” does not mean, “Mary, with no sin.” It means God granted her grace and forgiveness of sins — JUST LIKE ALL WHO ARE SAVED. The saved are FULL OF GRACE. Just like Mary. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be saved! Grace through faith. I can see why you argue it though; you seem to have a difficulty with grace and faith. No matter how you twist it, you can’t make Mary sinless. God forgave her.. like he’s forgiven me. Like I hope and pray he will forgive you.
You still have no leg to stand on. So, once again, I ask you: where in scripture does it say that Mary (or Joseph) was sinless? Where? It doesn’t.
We are ALL born in sin and depraved. God alone changes us, justifies us, saves us, and sanctifies us. Mary doesn’t. She doesn’t intercede for us; Christ alone does.
Hoss
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