Nice screen-name!
Side note: You've apologized many times for the quality of your writing, given what you have
posted is a rewrite of a lost document. I recommend typing long posts in Notepad, and copy and
pasting to your browser when done. Personally, I used www.openoffice.org to type this response up.
Side note #2: I have tried to use the expression “Tanach / Old Testament” for the benefit of the Christians and Gentiles that will stumble upon this post. I mean no disrespect when I say “Old Testament”. Why should Hebraic jargon interfere with their understanding? This is the most important topic ever.
For the reader's benefit, when I quote you, I will put your words in bold. Tanach / Old Testament verses will be in blue. I will quote the New Testament in red.
Note carefully: my imperfection, and the imperfection of every human being, is not an original discovery of yourself, nor does it in and of itself vindicate your religious beliefs.
It would depend on the quality, and frequency of the imperfections discovered in this essay. If
you conclude that gentiles should be Noachides, and you use faulty premises to build up the
case for such, and faulty premises to tear down Jesus Christ as Messiah and God, then, with
respect, you would be in error sir.
I have pulled quotes from your vanity, in an effort to summarize your major points. Here are my
observations of your vanity, which is in response to my vanity
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2152441/posts.
1) Perhaps the best place to begin is to point out that nowhere in the TaNa"KH (the Hebrew Bible or "old testament") is their a word about "soul salvation" in the chr*stian sense. No one goes door to door passing out tracts.
2) So each individual must either live an entire life of absolute sinlessness or else face this
inevitable fate--unless G-d incarnates Himself as a divine scapegoat to take this punishment Himself on behalf of every single individual.
3) This, more than sanctity in the higher spritual worlds, shows forth G-d's greatness. And how was this to be accomplished? Keyhole, meet key--by the observance of the Torah.
4) Please do not confuse this, the true concept of tiqqun `olam, with G-dless imitations.
5) Of course at death the soul reports to G-d for judgement and some sort of assessment is made, but this assessment will be based on our obedience to G-d's commandments (and our repentence for our sins). This is not an all-or-nothing judgement, for the factors of each individual soul, its trials and tribulations, are something only G-d could possibly judge or recompense.
6) I hope I have succeeded in getting sincere chr*stians (especially antinomian FP's who do so much proselytizing and "witnessing") to see that in this worldview the notion that messiah has already come is ludicrous
7) The Torah foretells periods of destruction and exile when the sacrifices cannot be offered (these are always punishments for abandoning the Torah, not for "rejecting the messiah").
8) And when the real Mashiach comes it will not be subject to debate but a fact that no one on earth will be able to deny. So long as we're debating, then he hasn't come.
9) I take the following quote from your post 8 in the vanity I posted, “It did not take chr*stianity to discover that we all sin. Even before man was created the ground sinned when G-d told it to bring forth `etz peri `oseh peri and instead it brought forth `etz `oseh peri. The universality of sin is not a chr*stian discovery.”
10) All theories of "progressive revelation" are inherently unprovable. If revelation "progresses" from lower to higher, where does it stop? I know you will say with the "new testament," but that is arbitrary on the part of chr*stians. If revelation "progresses," why shouldn't chr*stianity be superseded by islam, which would be superseded by sikhism, which would be superseded by bahai, which would be superseded by something new to come along? When would it ever stop? Judaism, alone of all the religions of the world, is the only one that identifies the first revelation as the supreme one, while every other religion has to claim a "progressive" revelation until it comes to its own scriptures (at which point it stops, of course).
11) Finally, I take the following quote from your post 23 in the vanity I posted, "And unless you're implying that since the sacrifices cannot be carried out at this time that the Torah as "expired" (G-d forbid!). First, the Torah itself predicts exile (during which sacrifices cannot be brought)--never as a punishment for "rejecting the messiah," but always and only for straying from the Torah itself.
Before we begin: As a founding premise for everything I say in response to your essay, the Tanach, which Christians call the Old Testament, is the very inspired, inerrant, Word of God. The evidence supporting this notion is at http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html. The Tanach / Old Testament is the Word of God, because it says what happens, thousands of years before it happens with accuracy, and specificity not seen anywhere else. Devils and men can't do this. Only God.
If you don't accept the above as evidence for the Tanach / Old Testament being the inspired, inerrant Word of God, then I thank you for reading as far as you have.
Let's begin now. I will echo your words in bold, and respond.
1) Perhaps the best place to begin is to point out that nowhere in the TaNa"KH (the Hebrew Bible or "old testament") is their a word about "soul salvation" in the chr*stian sense. No one goes door to door passing out tracts.
I will now break up this paragraph, and respond to it piecemeal.
1A) Perhaps the best place to begin is to point out that nowhere in the TaNa"KH (the Hebrew Bible or "old testament") is their a word about "soul salvation" in the chr*stian sense.
I brought up PaRDes before. As a reminder to all ...
1) Pashat/Literal primary meaning
2) Remez/Hints in the text of something deeper
3) Drash/The added understanding that can only be gleaned by a story, riddle, or parable and the deepest level
4) Sod/Secrets and mysteries, which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in the text,
which can and often do require many hours, weeks, months and in some cases even years to receive, through the diligent study and meditation in YHWH’s Word.
... and your response to this PaRDes summary in post 43 is, “PaRDeS assumes the eternal validity of Torah.” But I don't see why this is necessarily the case. Is there some Torah/Tanach/Old Testament that you could point me to that I might understand why you say this?
“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
Ezekiel 37:12
Plainly, the dead rise. Some to an eternal Kingdom which we know as heaven, and some to damnation and hell as we infer from the following verses ...
"For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell."
Psalms 86:13
Hell is "low" Deuteronomy 32:22
Hell has "sorrow" II Samuel 22:6
Hell is "deep" Job 11:8
The Wicked are turned into "Hell" Psalms 9:17
The soul will not be left in "hell" but a "path of life" will be shown Psalms 16:10-11
For the wicked "death" and a quick trip to "hell" are prayed for in Psalms 55:15
The mercy of God delivers from hell in Psalms 86:13
Solomon spoke of hell in Proverbs 5 and 7 and 9.
I could go on, but you get the point. Hell is scriptural, it's not nice, and I don't want anyone I know to go there.
But even if we couldn't infer that the dead rise to damnation or paradise, Daniel spells it out for us ...
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.”
Daniel 12:2
The aforementioned verse from Daniel, summarizes, and ties together many verses from the Tanach / Old Testament. In one of the many caves where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, there was a papyrus found where Daniel was called the “greatest” of the prophets. Thus I would think it fitting that Daniel would have the privilege of tying it all together.
1B) “No one goes door to door passing out tracts.”
“Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.”
Jonah 1:1-2
The modern notion of Judaism not being evangelistic, and it's only Christians that evangelize, is an invention. Original Torah Apocalyptic Judaism is evangelistic.
“Keep therefore and do [them]; for this [is] your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation [is] a wise and understanding people.”
Deuteronomy 4:6
In Deuteronomy, we see that God is interested in the nations seeing a great Jewish nation, and coming to faith in their God, the true God.
When you look at a map, you will notice that Israel is the bridge between Africa, and the rest of the world. God centered Israel in the center of the known world, so that it might evangelize to the nations as the nations passed through Israel.
Thus says the Lord, Keep judgment, and do justice; for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. Happy is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the sabbath and does not profane it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil. Do not let the son of the stranger, who has joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord has completely separated me from his people; nor let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
For thus says the Lord to the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; And to them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the stranger, who join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one who keeps the sabbath and does not profane it, and all who hold fast to my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples. The Lord God who gathers the outcasts of Israel says, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those who are already gathered.
Isaiah 56:1-8
In the above verses, God invites the son of the stranger, and eunuchs to join Israel. The notion that the nations are not to be attracted to, and invited into the covenant God made with Israel, is a modern invention.
2) So each individual must either live an entire life of absolute sinlessness or else face this
inevitable fate--unless G-d incarnates Himself as a divine scapegoat to take this punishment
Himself on behalf of every single individual.
Again, PaRDes. The sacrifice of innocent animals is a type and shadow for the Messiah which was to come.
Maimonides once said, “All the prophets spoke of Moshiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior” If Maimonides saw Messiah in the Tanach / Old Testament, should not you look more carefully?
“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
Isaiah 53:6
God lays our iniquity on the person mentioned in Isiah 53. The “divine scapegoat” is the Messiah himself. The notion that the “divine scapegoat” is Messiah was also mentioned by non-Christian Jews.
As long as Israel dwelt in the Holy Land, the rituals and sacrifices they performed (in the Temple) removed all those diseases from the world; now the Messiah removes them from the children of the world.
Zohar 2:212a
3) This, more than sanctity in the higher spritual worlds, shows forth G-d's greatness. And how was this to be accomplished? Keyhole, meet key--by the observance of the Torah.
But even the Torah says in Deuteronomy 18:15 that God would send a prophet. Genesis 49:10, and many others do also. If Torah was meant to be forever, then Messiah would not be necessary.
Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was their master, says the Lord;
Jeremiah 31:30-31 Soncino Tanach / Old Testament
Even though we were given Torah, God promised a Messiah.
4) Please do not confuse this, the true concept of tiqqun `olam, with G-dless imitations.
Did "tiqqun olam" which amounts to creating heaven on earth in the name of God, get coined or
before or after the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 A.D.?
5) Of course at death the soul reports to G-d for judgment and some sort of assessment is made, but this assessment will be based on our obedience to G-d's commandments (and our repentence for our sins). This is not an all-or-nothing judgment, for the factors of each individual soul, its trials and tribulations, are something only G-d could possibly judge or recompense.
I won't repeat myself about this matter.
6) I hope I have succeeded in getting sincere chr*stians (especially antinomian FP's who do so much proselytizing and "witnessing") to see that in this worldview the notion that messiah has already come is ludicrous
Sir, I would be extremely impressed if you can decisively, systematically, logically, and historically tear down the evidence at http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html which supports the notion that Messiah has already come.
Between what Daniel, Haggai, and Genesis report to be the time of the Messiah, we can triangulate the coming of Moshiach to be early 1st century.
Rashi also agreed Daniel spelled out the time of Messiah ...
He (Jonathan) moreover sought to make a Targum of the Hagiographa; but the voice from heaven came forth and said, "Enough." And why might he not execute a Targum of the Hagiographa? Because the End about the Advent of the Messiah is revealed in it. Rashi says, "In the Book of Daniel."
Megillah fol. 3a
“The glory of this latter house shall be greater than that of the former, says the Lord of hosts; and in this place I will give peace, says the Lord of hosts.”
Haggai 2:9 Soncino Tanach / Old Testament
What did God mean about “give peace” in the 2nd Temple, if it meant not the coming of the Messiah?
“The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the scepter from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and to him shall the obedience of the people be.”
Genesis 49:10 Soncino Tanach / Old Testament
It was whilst the 2nd temple still stood that the Talmud reports that the Jewish leaders thought that Genesis 49:10 should be fulfilled. The following are what some ancient Rabbis thought of Genesis 49:10
The transmission of domain shall not cease from the house of Judah, nor the scribe from his children's children, forever, until Messiah comes.
Targum Onkelos
Rabbi Johanan said, ‘The world was created for the sake of the Messiah, what is this Messiah’s name?’ The school of Rabbi Shila said, ‘his name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh comes. (Genesis 49:10)’
Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 98b
Kings and rulers shall not cease from the house of Judah…until King Messiah comes.
Targum Pseudo-Jonathan
UNTIL SHILOH COMETH; this alludes to the royal Messiah. AND UNTO HIM SHALL THE OBEDIENCE (YIKHATH) OF THE PEOPLE BE: he [the Messiah] will come and set on edge (makheth) the teeth of the nations of the world.
Midrash Rabbah, Genesis XCVIII. 8
Kings shall not cease from the house of Judah...until the time of the coming of the King Messiah...to whom all the dominions of the earth shall become subservient.
Targum Yerushalmi
Since the destruction of the 1st Temple in 587 BC, the Jewish people though continuously occupied by a “lawgiver from between his feet”, were always given by their conquerors the option of wielding the “scepter” for executing whoever they esteemed worthy of death according to the Law of Moses.
According to Josephus, the ascension of the Roman Procurator Caponius in the early 1st century also marked the end of the Jewish option of wielding this scepter.
And now Archelaus' part of Judea was reduced into a province, and Caponius, one of the equestrian order of the Romans, was sent as a procurator, having the power of life and death put into his hands by Caesar.
Josephus
The aforementioned eyewitness report by the 1st century Jewish Pharisee Josephus is corroborated by the following quote from the Talmud:
A little more than forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the power of pronouncing capital sentences was taken away from the Jews.
Josephus
The relevant question is, now that we've established that “Shiloh” is an idiom for “Messiah,” as well as the fact that the “scepter” had been struck from the hand of Israel by the “lawgiver” Caesar, did the Jewish leaders recognize the fulfillment of Genesis 49:10?
They did, and they recorded it in the Talmud.
When the members of the Sanhedrin found themselves deprived of their right over life and death, a general consternation took possession of them: they covered their heads with ashes, and their bodies with sackcloth, exclaiming: 'Woe unto us for the scepter has departed from Judah and the Messiah has not come.'
Rabbi Rachmon
For a fuller discussion with references on historical corroboration of the fulfillment of Genesis 49:10, please visit http://www.direct.ca/trinity/shiloh.html.
7) The Torah foretells periods of destruction and exile when the sacrifices cannot be offered (these are always punishments for abandoning the Torah, not for "rejecting the messiah").
Sir, I respectfully disagree.
Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine ...
Babylonian Talmud, Yoma 39b, Soncino Version
The crimson colored strap supernaturally became white when God accepted the sacrifice made by the Jewish priests for the collective sins of Israel. God stopped manifesting this miracle, according to the Talmud 40 years before the destruction of the 2nd temple. The 2nd Temple was destroyed in 70A.D. 70 minus 40 years means 30A.D. is precisely when the punishment of God refusing Israel's sacrifices started.
One must ask themselves: What happened in 30AD for God to punish the Jewish people by refusing their sacrifices? The answer is, the Jewish leaders began publicly insulting the ministry of Jesus Christ (“Anointed Savior”).
The [Jewish leaders] said, 'He casts out devils through the prince of the devils.'
Matthew 9:34
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Mark 3:22
On the off chance you believe that the Jews didn't kill Jesus on the charge of claiming to be God, and rather the Romans did, here are the words of Maimonides in his “Letter to Yemen”.
Jesus of Nazareth... impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him.
Maimonides
Again, the exact year the Talmud reports the punishment having begun, is the exact year that Yehoshua Ha Mashiach arrived on the scene, performing miracles, and proclaiming the “Kingdom of Heaven” is “at hand”.
8) And when the real Mashiach comes it will not be subject to debate but a fact that no one on earth will be able to deny. So long as we're debating, then he hasn't come.
Deuteronomy 18:19 makes it perfectly clear that people will have a choice to follow Messiah or not. Isaiah 53:1 shows that reports of the Messiah's coming will be doubted.
For 15 prophecies that foretell the rejection of Moshiach, please see http://messiahrevealed.org/rejected.html.
The fact that people reject Moshiach, does not negate from his authenticity at all. In fact it proves it, since His rejection was foretold, and the Word of God does not lie, because only it says what happens before it happens with accuracy and specificity.
9) I take the following quote from your post 8 in the vanity I posted, “It did not take chr*stianity to discover that we all sin. Even before man was created the ground sinned when G-d told it to bring forth `etz peri `oseh peri and instead it brought forth `etz `oseh peri. The universality of sin is not a chr*stian discovery.”
A) It did not take chr*stianity to discover that we all sin.
True. For the Jewish doctrine of Original Sin, please see ...
Genesis 8:21
II Chronicles 6:36
1 Kings 8:21
Psalms 14:2-3
Psalms 53:3-4
Psalms 130:3
Proverbs 20:9
Isaiah 64:4-6
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Ecclesiastes 8:11
Ecclesiastes 9:3
Jeremiah 17:9
Micah 7:2-3
Isaiah 53:6
B) “Even before man was created the ground sinned”
Pulling out my trusty electronic Soncino Tanach, which for those of you not graced with a nominal Jewish upbringing as I was, is an English Old Testament translated by Jews for Jews circa 1960-1963, we read ...
... and fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:11-12
Pushback #1 to “ground sinned”) If the ground or trees disobeyed in Genesis 1:12, meaning the 1st sin came before the fall in Genesis 3, why would the Bible also report in Genesis 1:12 that, “God saw that it was good.” Was God blind to this sin by the ground? Put another way, if sin did not get introduced into creation when Adam and Eve's partook of the forbidden fruit, why did God only curse Adam, Eve, and serpent in Genesis 3 *after* the fiasco in the Garden of Eve?
Pushback #2 to “ground sinned”) What kind of tree yields fruit other than a fruit tree? This “ground sinned” theory makes it sound like God commanded fruit, and for all intents and purposes, got fruitbats. Functionally, what is the difference between what God commanded, and what he got in Genesis 1:11-12? Could it be possible the person who came up with this theory is inadvertently making God out to be impotent, just for the sake of opposing Original Sin as a Biblical doctrine that began with Adam and Eve's sin?
Pushback #3 to “ground sinned”) Do you have any idea when this interpretation was birthed? I would draw some comfort that it was brought forth in good faith if it could be verified that it pre-dates the time of Yehoshua Ha Mashiach a.k.a. Jesus Christ.
10) All theories of "progressive revelation" are inherently unprovable. If revelation "progresses" from lower to higher, where does it stop? I know you will say with the "new testament," but that is arbitrary on the part of chr*stians. If revelation "progresses," why shouldn't chr*stianity be superseded by islam, which would be superseded by sikhism, which would be superseded by bahai, which would be superseded by something new to come along? When would it ever stop? Judaism, alone of all the religions of the world, is the only one that identifies the first revelation as the supreme one, while every other religion has to claim a "progressive" revelation until it comes to its own scriptures (at which point it stops, of course).
The reason the progression of revelation continues with the New Testament, is because the New Testament, like the Old Testament, says what happens, thousands of years before it happens with accuracy and specificity. Please see http://www.direct.ca/trinity/evidence.html and http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html for the details. This is what Grant Jeffrey appropriately called, the signature of God. By which you know that you can trust your eternal destiny to the God revealed in the Bible.
Why does the progressive revelation continue through the New Testament and cease with Islam et. al.? The writings of Islam don't tell the future with accuracy and specificity the way the Bible does. Devils and men can't do what you bear witness to at the aforementioned links. Only God can. All you have to do to dismantle my response to your point, is tear down the evidence at the above links, and my responses which follow your challenges, and this case falls apart.
Why does not the revelation continue with Sikhism, Bahaiism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnessism, and Scientology? They don't predict the future as only God does in the Bible. The signature of God is not in their writings as demonstrated in the above links. God did not write them.
Even the first revelation of Judaism promised the Messiah, and Christianity is the fulfillment of that promise. Islam claims that Christianity is true but that it was corrupted, thus leaning on the truthfulness of Christianity for credibility. Mormonism and Russelism do the same thing, leaning on Christianity as true. Their founding premise, like that of Islam, is that Christianity is true, but has been corrupted over the years. All this, despite Psalms 12:6-7 and Jesus' claim that “my words will not pass away”.
11) Finally, I take the following quote from your post 23 in the vanity I posted, "And unless
you're implying that since the sacrifices cannot be carried out at this time that the Torah as (sic)"expired" (G-d forbid!). First, the Torah itself predicts exile (during which sacrifices cannot be brought)--never as a punishment for "rejecting the messiah," but always and only for straying from the Torah itself.
I have already laid out the ...
A) ... case for the messiah having come in the past.
B) ... case for the rejection of the Messiah.
If the Messiah is God himself, then rejecting the Messiah would be rejecting God himself. Please see http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org/misc/pdf/The%20New%20Updated%20Messianic%20Believers%20First%20Response%20Handboo..pdf for the case for the systematic and deliberate erasure of the divine name, YHVH, from the received Masoretic text at least 134 times, specifically in cases where one could infer the Messiah to be God.
Thus, Israel rejected God, and thus his Word, Jesus Christ, when they rejected their Moshiach.
The Brief Case For Christianity:
1) http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html. If you disagree, please tell me what exact sentence
your disagreement begins.
2) http://messiahrevealed.org/category-index.html I don't require a response to all 300+
fulfillments of Old Testament prophecy in the life and times of Jesus Christ. If you could show
me a verse in the Tanach / Old Testament where it says the Messiah must accomplish all in one visit, or a verse where it says the Messiah can't do all in two visits, I will be impressed to no end. I have compassed the Tanach many times, and I have not seen it.
None of us has the time to instantly and expertly answer every point brought up in this forum. I am patient for an excellent response from you, about this most important of matters.
Your task, “if you choose to accept it”:
1) Show me how I err in my statements questioning Noachidism (sp?), as presented.
2) Tear down the Brief Case for Christianity I have made in the above two points.
Sir, I don't know you. But I hope I have presented this material respectfully, and accurately.
Have a great day.
- ROTB
Just coming back online after Yom Shevi`i. Will read and comment later.
God Bless.
I have just saved your very detailed post in my computer files that I may peruse and study it in detail. Thank you for your patience.