Calling All Christians: Will Finally Witness to Jewish Family After 9 Years (VANITY)

Me | 12/21/2008 | Me

[Erskine Childers]

"For the law will go forth from Zion, And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." - Isaiah.

Well quoth.

[Erskine Childers]

I assumed you were denying that it was a chr*stian belief that the Torah was a "temporary schoolmaster to prepare the way for the messiah."

Okay, then please show me where Paul says that the Torah is a temporary schoolmaster for the messiah. I am unaware of any such statement by Paul, but I'd be pleased to hear what you have to say.

What Paul and the rest of the Church always held from the time of Jesus until today was and is that Jesus was precisely the Torah. They quite literally equal each other. JESUS = TORAH. Using simple substitution of equal terms, for Christians you're suggesting that "Paul taught that Jesus was a temporary schoolmaster for Jesus," which is obviously absurd.

If you don't understand that much, you obviously misunderstand fundamentally Christian basic doctrine. I repeat that you should first comprehend what traditional Christians actually believe before you start opining on the subject.

[Zionist Conspirator]

I am not an expert on the "new testament" and thus can't give you chapter and verse off the tip of my tongue (which you will perhaps take as "proof" that Paul never wrote what I said he wrote), but one of the epistles in the NT states that the Torah was "a schoolmaster" to lead to Chr*st. The original Greek term, I believe, was "pedagogue."

I am unaware of any chr*stian teaching that J*sus=Torah. I do know that chr*stians believe that J*sus=the Logos.

Other than this, I'm sorry I can't satisfy you.

[Erskine Childers]

It's okay. I merely point out that, as your post above proves, you know little about Christianity. I ask only that you retain a respectful silence about Christianity, since by your own admission you're "not an expert." This is only fitting, after all. I would never presume to talk about Judaism, especially with a devout Jew, with my very sketchy knowledge of the Talmud. In short, what I'm trying to do is to convince you with love and respect to shut up about the subject about which you know so little.

I was musing over our exchange yesterday, and I recalled a couple of images that illustrate the point of Torah = Jesus. Jesus is the "Word made flesh." For us traditional Christians, Jesus is quite literally "flesh" under the signs of the bread and wine of the Eucharist. JESUS = TORAH = EUCHARIST.

Anyway, one is the Yiddish folk story about the "golem", which was a little clay figure of a man that a rabbi made and whom he animated by placing a bit of a Torah into its mouth. This is precisely the Christian point of Jesus being the Word and the Word being our spiritual sustenance. The other is a scene from a Flannery O'Connor story where a Christian starts to tear pages from a Bible and begins eating them.

As we Christians celebrate Christmas, I reflect upon the fact that the Word was at birth laid in a manager and that the animals came and breathed upon Him. I love God for painting that beautiful picture of GOD AS FOOD FOR US ANIMALS and how we must literally eat the Word so that our mortal souls (in original sin, like that of the animals) may become immortal.

A very Merry Christmas to all.

[Zionist Conspirator]

The reason I feel "qualified" to pontificate on chr*stianity (rightly or wrongly) is that I have been both a Fundamentalist Protestant and a Catholic, as well as having investigated the other ancient churches, before becoming an identifying Noachide some eighteen years ago.

My vanity was meant as a response to another thread. The purpose, whether or not accomplished, was to show that the differences between Judaism and chr*stianity are far more profound than a mere disagreement over whether or not the Messiah has come. The understanding of what the Messiah is, and indeed the whole worldview, profoundly different. Most sincere and philo-Semitic chr*stians (and I used to be one, so I speak with full respect) Think that merely by saying their prayers in Hebrew or adding a Jewish ritual or holiday here or there they have put humpty-dumpty back together. But the only thing the two religions have in common are a set of Scriptures relating history and prophecy. The spiritual worldviews are completely at odds (chr*stianity's coming from the "new testament" and Judaism's from the Oral Torah and esoteric teachings. The ancient Israelites were not "pre-incarnation chr*stians." Chr*stians cannot accept this, but I wish to at least get the message out there.

The whole point of whether or not J*sus is the Torah is missing one very important point--is it true. This may or may not be the chr*stian teaching, but that does not make it true. Chr*stians (especially the less Biblically inclined, liturgical variety) simply don't seem to be able to fathom the concept of a book that on some level literally contains the entire creation. I suppose it sounds too "protestant."

Chag sameach.

[Erskine Childers]

The purpose, whether or not accomplished, was to show that the differences between Judaism and chr*stianity are far more profound than a mere disagreement over whether or not the Messiah has come. The understanding of what the Messiah is, and indeed the whole worldview, profoundly different.

I wouldn't presume to discuss Jewish beliefs, as I said above, but I would agree that it would only stand to reason that the two religions and the larger cultures that derive from them (after all, "culture" is just a gross expression of "cult") are profoundly at odds with each other. One says that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the Word of God made Flesh; that Jesus is a walking, talking "Torah with ears" who is comes to us and abides with us in the written Word and and literal human flesh and blood under the signs of bread and wine in the Eucharist. The other rejects Jesus of Nazareth as a deceiver and an idolator, and with Maimonides calls His worshippers idolators (something the Rambam wouldn't say about Islam and Muslims, by the way).

The two could not be more fundamentally at odds with each other.

And I say that with all respect to you and your fellow religionists. After all, St. Paul says exactly the same thing. If what we believe about Jesus being the Word of God - a Torah with ears - is wrong, then we are the pitiful of all men. Our belief in Christ is indeed a stumbling block for the rationalist Greek and a terrible scandal for the pious Jew (and Muslim, which is the main point of commonality between those two great systems), as St. Paul put it. And yet we believe in Christ, the Word of God, crucified.

The two really couldn't be more at odds, indeed that is true. "Judeo-Christianity" is obviously an oxymoron. And I point out that rather obvious (but very unpopular) truth with all love and respect to my Jewish friends and neighbors.

We worship the Torah nailed to the Tree of Good and Evil.

If we're wrong about Jesus, then He indeed was a sorcerer and deceiver, and we are the most pitiful of all men.

So we agree that we profoundly disagree.

So cheers. And I mean that.

It's interesting that you used to be a Protestant, I take it a Calvinist, before your conversion to Judaism. I say that because your understanding of Christianity seems to miss the implications of God Made Flesh in the Eucharist. This is the center of traditional Christianity, and I think it is the cause of no little confusion on your part. You see the Bible as a Book. Maybe a very special book, but nevertheless, a book. We see the Bible as a Man. The Word of God is alive, very literally. You seem to think that Christianity is all about drawing analogies and making things less tangibly real. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Christianity of the Gospels and of the Church Fathers is all about a Man made of flesh and blood Who was and is with us in ways that we can touch and feel in the pages of the Book and in the bread and wine of the Sacrament.

We traditional Christians are all about making abstractions tangible, not the other way around.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thank you for your thoughts, though I am a Noachide, not a Jew.

As the Torah contains within its letters all the mysteries of the universe, it's hardly a mere book in the conventional sense. But it does not relate myths (as many Catholics believe) but real historical episodes about real people (though more for moral instruction than as a mere record of history).

I was Catholic for six years.

[Erskine Childers]

As the Torah contains within its letters all the mysteries of the universe, it's hardly a mere book in the conventional sense.

Of course that's true. The Torah can be seen as a sort of genetic code of Jesus, Who Himself contains all of creation. As St. Paul tells us, the entire universe was created by, through and for Him. It only stand to reason that every bit of it is imbued with His Glory.

[ROTB]

Blessed are you when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you, falsely, for My sake.

I am so sorry for your loss.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Of course that's true. The Torah can be seen as a sort of genetic code of Jesus, Who Himself contains all of creation. As St. Paul tells us, the entire universe was created by, through and for Him. It only stand to reason that every bit of it is imbued with His Glory.

We can go on playing "ping pong" forever, but the point is that the assumptions of chr*stianity are not true merely because they are the assumptions of chr*stianity. If the Torah does not authorize the "new testament" then it has no standing, however poetic its theology.

Be well.

[Erskine Childers]

the point is that the assumptions of chr*stianity are not true merely because they are the assumptions of chr*stianity.

The same can be said for your religion, and indeed of all religions, could it not? Your faith affects the truth of your religion as much as my faith affects the truth of mine. Which is to say, not at all.

If the Torah does not authorize the "new testament" then it has no standing, however poetic its theology.

You offer a circular argument here. You assert that the Torah must "authorize" the New Testament, implicitly (I suppose) because for you it would have to precede the NT. But as I've pointed out many times above, this simply isn't the case. That's because Jesus, as the Eternal Word of God, precedes the Torah, which in a sense was written to embody Him in tangible form here on Earth.

Therefore, the matter is quite to the contrary. Jesus is the Word of God and He therefore precedes and encompasses the Torah. It, along with the rest of the creation, was written by, through, and for Him and Him alone.

To the point: it is the Torah that derives any authority it might have from Jesus of Nazareth, and not the other way around.

[Zionist Conspirator]

To the point: it is the Torah that derives any authority it might have from Jesus of Nazareth, and not the other way around.

Of course, one must already be a chr*stian in order to believe this.

[Erskine Childers]

Of course, one must already be a chr*stian in order to believe this.

Just as one must already be a Jew (or a Noachide) to believe that the Torah is preeminent.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Just as one must already be a Jew (or a Noachide) to believe that the Torah is preeminent.

You really insist on continuing this argument forever? That's your prerogative.

The Torah was given on Mt. Sinai and was recognized as the Word of G-d before chr*stianity ever existed. The claims of chr*stianity, and of any other alleged "higher" revelation, must be measured against the criteria (if any) set by previously recognized revelation. It can't come simply out of the air, however "poetic" it seems.

I have long observed that Catholics invariably attempt to prove the falsity of Protestantism by simply pointing out that Catholicism is older. If you're going to pull the chronological argument out with the Prots, it's inconsistent to suddenly shelve it with regard to Judaism. And if the chronological argument is fallacious when offered by Judaism, then Catholics are going to have to stop invoking it in their argument with Protesants.

Chodesh tov.

[Erskine Childers]

The Torah was given on Mt. Sinai and was recognized as the Word of G-d before chr*stianity ever existed.

Again, you must have faith to believe this. Faith in the Torah is as much a leap of faith as is faith in Christ. Do you see this point?

The claims of chr*stianity, and of any other alleged "higher" revelation, must be measured against the criteria (if any) set by previously recognized revelation.

Christ is not a "higher" revelation. It is in fact precisely the same revelation, since Jesus = Torah. Do you see this point?

It can't come simply out of the air, however "poetic" it seems.

Faith in Torah is as ethereal as faith in Christ. The both are based purely on faith in a devine revelation. Neither can be either proved or disproved using deduction. They both arise out of thin air, as it were. Do you see this point?

I have long observed that Catholics invariably attempt to prove the falsity of Protestantism by simply pointing out that Catholicism is older.

You are again betraying your ignorance of traditional Christianity. Catholicism makes no such claim. "We are older, therefore we are right?" St. Thomas Aquinas would have sent you to the back of the class for that non sequitur.

One question: why do you put a "*" in place of the "i" in the word "christianity"?

[ROTB]

Hello Everyone.

This is the author of the “Calling All Christians: Will Finally Witness to Jewish Family After 9 years” vanity.

I have responded to the Noachide claims of “Zionist Conspirator” at the following posting.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2152848/posts?page=35#35

Have a great day,

- ROTB