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To: DouglasKC
I don't want to seem nitpicky on this because I value your contributions and insight so please don't take it the wrong way but isn't this exactly the rationale that Roman Catholics use for utilizing icons in worship services? Not that I'm comparing the two but do you see the point?

I understand why from an external perspective, the two could be confused. However, the argument breaks down on two fronts: 1) God forbids making icons for use in worship--He did not forbid the Torah. 2) Kissing may be interpreted as worship of a sort, but we bring the Word to our lips every time we eat the Lord's Supper/Passover. Does that make the matzah and wine icons?

There are many more scriptural references to Jewish tradition being "bad", then there are to them being "good".

Not really. The "bad" traditional arguments are of two sort:

1) Traditions that negated Scripture, and
2) Traditions that had been elevated to Scripture.
The first sort are pretty easy to spot and need little elaboration here. Suffice to say that the biggest example are the rabbinic prohibitions specifically designed to prevent Jews from associating too closely with even God-fearing Gentiles. That's why, while I keep kosher (Biblical) and separate my meat and dairy (arguably Biblical; not where I'm going to spend my ammo with the Jewish community in any case), I could never keep the full range of kashrut laws, since they were specifically created with the intent of avoiding eating with Gentiles.

The second is pretty easy to avoid: Don't tell someone who isn't following an extra-Biblical tradition that they are sinning. Two of the big examples in Yeshua's ministry were the more finicky rules regarding Sabbath and the ritual washing of hands. In both cases, Yeshua pointed out that not keeping someone's extra-Biblical tradition is not sin in and of itself, as I might point out to some of my Sunday brethren on a variety of issues.

I've written a longish article here that explains the approach we take to tradition, and also demonstrates that Yeshua was not opposed to it at all--in its proper place. I need to write another one soon defending the Pharisees from the more malign stereotypes foisted on them.

I think this is an indication that Paul evaluated ALL tradition in light of scripture or what Christ had taught instead of turning to the opinions or traditions of others.

Absolutely true--he evaluated all tradition in light of the Word. He didn't toss it all out and start from scratch, or else he would have been lying when he claimed to still be a Pharisee at his appearance before the Sanhedrin.

But these traditions should generally be of form rather than function.

I think I agree, but please elaborate on what you mean by this. Also, if you could answer a question for me, do you keep the tradition of the Afikomen at Passover?

Shalom.

40 posted on 12/18/2008 9:57:34 AM PST by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Buggman
I understand why from an external perspective, the two could be confused. However, the argument breaks down on two fronts: 1) God forbids making icons for use in worship--He did not forbid the Torah. 2) Kissing may be interpreted as worship of a sort, but we bring the Word to our lips every time we eat the Lord's Supper/Passover. Does that make the matzah and wine icons?

No because there's a specific command in scripture by Christ to use the bread and wine. I don't believe there's any example of the torah ceremony. To me it's what Christ warned against in Matthew 15:6 when he said " Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.". Another reason I wouldn't do it is that it's clearly controversial (judging by the quick study I did) and it may cause brethren to stumble.

Absolutely true--he evaluated all tradition in light of the Word. He didn't toss it all out and start from scratch, or else he would have been lying when he claimed to still be a Pharisee at his appearance before the Sanhedrin.

Looking at the context of that statement I don't think he was making the claim that he was a Pharisee and following all the Pharisetical rules. He clearly wasn't doing that or he wouldn't have believed that Jesus was the messiah. He was making the statement to gain an advantage:

Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"
Act 23:7 And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided.

Scripture also points out that he wasn't afraid to break rules like dining with gentiles. Although nobody can say for certain, overall I would say that there's very few aspects of tradition that carried over past biblical times that were used in Christian worship. Scripture is preserved because it's inspired. Tradition doesn't because it's not.

But these traditions should generally be of form rather than function. I think I agree, but please elaborate on what you mean by this. Also, if you could answer a question for me, do you keep the tradition of the Afikomen at Passover?

An example of form and function could be found in the bread and wine ceremony on Passover. We know that Christ dictated that we are to do this on Passover, but he didn't specify how big the cup was, how much bread to eat, what format to pass it out, what time of day on passover it should be done, etc. etc.

I had to look up "Afikomen" to know what it is, so no, I don't do it.

41 posted on 12/18/2008 6:50:39 PM PST by DouglasKC
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