That is completely and utterly false.
And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?" Jesus answered, "The most important is,'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (Matt. 12:28-32)
There you have it: love God, love your neighbor. Not two "entirely different categories," but rather the defining characteristics of our entire relationship with God. Jesus made clear that our responsibilities toward our neighbor. And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
But my alternative, which is based on the Scriptures I’ve given, is far better than your alternative which is based on conjecture.
So far as I can see, you've given me two out-of-context lines from St. Paul. I gave you the words of Jesus Christ that directly address the topics at hand. If you really want to reduce this discussion to a Scripture contest, mine are bigger than yours.
But the fundamental choice for God cannot be made by any human until their dead soul is made alive and their defective will is renewed by the power of the Holy Spirit.
No. That's a circular argument based on an assumption that your position is a priori true.
I don’t demand anything.
Of course you do. You demand that I accept the truth of your doctrine, and read Scripture in the same way you do. (I have to point out the irony of your trying so hard to convince me of a doctrine that contradicts your very attempt.)
I simply read what the Bible in a way that does justice to all the information I read. I must acknowledge a sovereign God in all areas, not just those that are to my liking.
Your language betrays you here.
Your problem is that you think too highly of men and too little of God (and who He is). He is the Potter and we are the clay. Not vice versa.
Well, that's cute, but inaccurate. I think highly enough of God to value His creation as it deserves to be valued. That includes accepting the implications of what it means to be "made in His image." I do not deny the fall or its consequences, nor do I deny our sorry, sinful state. I've made enough terrible decisions to understand my own tendencies. All that said, I simply accept that we have a choice, because that's part of what it means to be made in God's image.
But until you can convince me from Scripture alone that such is the case, I’m afraid you have nothing that I can hang my hat on.
You're dead, then. By your own statements, Scripture alone can do nothing of the sort. Nevertheless, to a human capable of rational thought -- which you are, despite your protestations to the contrary -- Scripture absolutely does tell us that we are responsible for our choices. Any rational, Scripture-based doctrine of sin, salvation, or damnation must acknowledge the role of human decisions.
I am finished this conversation. It is quite literally pointless. You will not convince me that your man-as-automaton theology has any connection with reality; and your self-imposed doctrine of strict unconvincability means that my words are wasted on you.
So ... have a nice, pre-destined life. I plan to live mine like my choices matter.
You're not getting it, so rather than continue to beat a dead horse I'll think I'll bow out.
Dear brother in Christ. The testiness you've evidenced near the end of this thread was once my own. I, like you, couldn't abide hearing the name Calvin, or the idea of some sort of predestination, or the fact that men's vaunted "free will" was not exactly as I had been taught in public school -- "you can do it!"
It was only by the grace of God that I came to gratefully embrace the truth of God's everlasting hand in all things. As one who has believed both perspectives, I can tell you unequivocably that Calvin was right and my life has been graced by this fact. All of us Calvinists wish for you this same security and confidence in God's perfect word and will.
Some time when you haven't anything better to do, read the following essay and some of the accompanying links.
The arguments you've used on this thread are exactly the same arguments Roman Catholics use on the forum -- men are capable of choosing righteousness; men are inherently "rational;" Christ has redeemed the entire world; and men are autonomous beings in a universe merely created, but not controlled by God.
The Reformation was waged to correct these errors. But as we know all too well after this election, progress can be slow and our human tendency is to slip back into error and liberalism.
It's said that Calvin understood the true meaning of "grace" after studying Ephesians 1. This chapter is pivotal to knowing who does what when in our salvation. I found this link this morning which offers many of Calvin's sermons, including those on Ephesians 1...
From the FIRST SERMON ON EPHESIANS 1...
" But let us bear well in mind these words where it is said, ‘the saints and faithful ones in Jesus Christ’. For St. Paul shows that all the holiness of men is nothing else but pretence until God has brought them to his own service and dedicated and consecrated them to it by faith. For we are all unclean by nature, and nothing but infection can come from us. It is true that, if men put on some fine outward show and appearance, they will be accounted as righteous as can be, and their virtues will be commended everywhere, just as we see that a man can acquire the reputation of great perfection if he but possesses some fair qualities. But we must remember that it is said in the fifteenth chapter of Acts that God cleanses men’s hearts by faith [15:9]. And he had great reason to do so, for (as the prophet Jeremiah says) man’s heart is a pit of horrible confusion [17:9]. We ourselves do not perceive it, but God has clearer eyes than me. Be that as it may, let us assure ourselves of this, that all the holiness which men imagine they have is but corruption and abominable before God, until such time as they are made one by the faith of the gospel. Therefore note it for a settled point that no other holiness is accepted and acknowledged at God’s hand than the holiness of believers. For except we first become Christians we are blind and can never render to God his due..."
And from the SECOND SERMON ON EPHESIANS 1...
You see then that the reason why some men find this doctrine hard and irksome is because they are too much wedded to their own opinion and cannot submit themselves to God’s wisdom, to receive his sayings soberly and modestly. And truly we ought to take warning from what St. Paul says, namely, that the natural man does not understand God’s secrets but regards them as stark foolishness [I Cor. 2:14]. And why Because we are not his counsellors but must have things revealed to us by his Holy Spirit, or else we shall never know them, and we must have them in such measure as he gives them to us...""In short, we have to note here that we shall never know where our salvation comes from till we have lifted up our minds to God’s eternal counsel by which he has chosen whom he pleased and left the remainder in their confusion and ruin. Now then it is no marvel that some men think this doctrine to be strange and hard, for it does not fit in at all with man’s natural understanding. If a man asks of the philosophers, they will always tell him that God loves such as are worthy of it, and that, since virtue pleases him, he also marks out such as are given that way to claim them for his people. You see then that, after our own imagination, we shall judge that God puts no other difference between men, in loving some and in hating others, than each man’s own worthiness and deserving. But, at the same time, let us also remember that in our own understanding there is nothing but vanity and that we must not measure God by our own yardstick, and that it is too excessive a presumption to impose law upon God so that it would not be lawful for him to do anything but that which we could conceive and which might seem just in our eyes. The matter here, therefore, concerns the reverencing of God’s secrets which are incomprehensible to us, and unless we do so, we shall never taste the principles of faith. For we know that our wisdom ought always to begin with humility, and this humility imports that we must not come weighing God’s judgments in our own balances or take it upon ourselves to be judges and arbiters of them. We must be sober because of the smallness of our minds, and since we are gross and dull, we must magnify God and say, as we are taught by the holy Scripture [Ps. 36:6], Lord, thy counsels are as a great deep, and no man is able to give an account of them.
As Christ tells us...
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- John 17:9-10;20"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Salvation is of the Lord.
"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." -- Proverbs 20:12