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To: topcat54
This is a terminology issue. I do not deny that folks can make choices. What I deny is that folk have a "free will" or natural ability to make any correct choices wrt God, that is, insofar as religion is concerned. (I do not confuse being able to carry on an intelligent conversation in this forum with the moral ability to make "free will" choices for God. They are two different birds.)

I find it impossible to state politely how completely I reject this statement! It is not mere "terminology."

What you've done, is to remove God from everyday life. Every lesson of Scripture -- most especially the Incarnation of Jesus Christ -- tells us that our everyday lives and our religious lives are not "different birds." They are inseparable. What we do -- whatever we do -- matters to God. To deny free will with respect to God, is to deny the possibility of any choice whatsoever, and it reduces us to the status of automata.

But there is nothing in any of these texts to suggest that these folks were able to make their "choice" apart from the special working of the Holy Spirit.

None of what I say should be taken to imply that the Holy Spirit has no role, because that would be utterly wrong. The Holy Spirit is at work within us. But I stoutly deny the idea that you have untangled the fundamental mystery of how the Holy Spirit somehow straddles the gap between God's sovereignty, and our responsibility.

Which reduces not just us, but Jesus Christ also, to nothing more than a character in a stage drama, in which all of the lines are written beforehand. I utterly reject that doctrine, too. I refuse to relegate Jesus to the position of "member of the cast," regardless of the the fact that He would have the starring role. We are made in God's image, after all -- and something made in "God's image" cannot be just some dead character on the pages of a script.

How did Abraham get to the point in his life where he was able to choose God? Why did no one else in Ur exercise their "free will" and go after the true God besides Abraham and his family? Abraham could only choose God because God had first chosen him and work in his soul to revive his dead, stony heart.

Your questions are good ones -- I've asked them myself, in fact. They are central to the mystery of the relationship between God and mankind. But we must be clear on the fact that the story of Abraham is incomplete in many ways. We're only told the story of one great man who heard God's call and accepted it. We don't know if other great men heard and rejected God's call. We don't know if there were lesser people who heard God's call and accepted it. We're told a vitally important story; but we must not assume that it's the only story that could be told.

Your answer, however, presupposes that the reason for Abram's response to God's call is that God made him do it. But that's contrary to all human experience: we have choices, and we exercise them; you say so yourself.

More than that, the plain reading of Scripture refutes your approach: God deals with Abram (and many others) on an if/then basis. Abram has a choice! And as a result, Abram sometimes does as God asks, and sometimes he does not. God makes a covenant with Abram, and coventants are two-way deals.

And again: we are made in God's image. This is not just some dry, lifeless idea. It is a fact, and as such it has real consequences and meaning. It means, for example, that we are capable of entering into covenants with God as partners, even if vastly unequal ones. To enter a covenant implies choice; a covenant without choice is no covenant at all.

There is no example in the Bible of an unregenerate person choosing to do some moral good toward God while in an unregenerate state.

Which really means, there are no examples that you will acknowledge as such. The reason for that is that you're reading Scripture through a lens of your own making: you DEMAND that all actions toward God be directed by God; and thus you see it so.

The refutation of that approach is found in one simple, wonderful word. "Love." God LOVES us. Not as we might love our wrenches or favorite chair, but as beings who are able participate in relationship with Him. The Person of Jesus Christ makes sense in no other way: again I remind you that we are created in God's image. And it is in that context that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

I have to tell you, FRiend, that despite your obvious sincerity, you are preaching a false Gospel -- one in which hope is extinguished and replaced by fatalism: we're either elect or not, and God has already decided our fate. "Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed."

The true Gospel is different: it is loving and kind. It offers hope to the oppressed, and we are surely oppressed by our sins. The true Gospel comes from a God who can say,

Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matt. 11:28-30)
This is not an order, it's an invitation -- and we're given the choice of whether or not to accept it.
46 posted on 11/21/2008 12:31:46 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
What you've done, is to remove God from everyday life. Every lesson of Scripture -- most especially the Incarnation of Jesus Christ -- tells us that our everyday lives and our religious lives are not "different birds." They are inseparable. What we do -- whatever we do -- matters to God. To deny free will with respect to God, is to deny the possibility of any choice whatsoever, and it reduces us to the status of automata.

Again, you are confused by your choice of terminology. If you cannot see the difference between intercourse among humans and the approaching the divine throne then it is no wonder you are confused about the matter of our alleged "free will". They are entirely different categories of activity.

The fact remains that one cannot approach God unless and until the are sovereignly called by Him. When this happens their wills are changed and they are given he ability to do good, morally speaking. The hearts of stone are turned into hearts of flesh.

But I stoutly deny the idea that you have untangled the fundamental mystery of how the Holy Spirit somehow straddles the gap between God's sovereignty, and our responsibility.

But my alternative, which is based on the Scriptures I’ve given, is far better than your alternative which is based on conjecture.

More than that, the plain reading of Scripture refutes your approach: God deals with Abram (and many others) on an if/then basis. Abram has a choice!

But the fundamental choice for God cannot be made by any human until their dead soul is made alive and their defective will is renewed by the power of the Holy Spirit. From the point on they are given the ability to choose right towards God. They do not always do it perfectly, but only now do they have the ability to do it at all (unlike those who remain unregenerate).

The reason for that is that you're reading Scripture through a lens of your own making: you DEMAND that all actions toward God be directed by God; and thus you see it so.

I don’t demand anything. I simply read what the Bible in a way that does justice to all the information I read. I must acknowledge a sovereign God in all areas, not just those that are to my liking. Your problem is that you think too highly of men and too little of God (and who He is). He is the Potter and we are the clay. Not vice versa.

I have to tell you, FRiend, that despite your obvious sincerity, you are preaching a false Gospel

I’ve been called worse. But until you can convince me from Scripture alone that such is the case, I’m afraid you have nothing that I can hang my hat on.

Let me say that I would love to believe what you believe. I would love to believe that man is so good that they can do right toward God without the need for a change; regeneration. I would love to believe in "free will" since it is the most noble belief of autonomous man. It is the view of the Enlightenment, not the Reformation. IOW, it fits well with the worldview of sinners who cannot see God as He truly is.

The true Gospel is different: it is loving and kind.

I’m afraid your gospel as you have tried to articulate it is quite stunted. It leaves us with no hope in the face of reality. "Free will" over and against God claim to absolute sovereignty leaves us with pure chaos and no hope in this life. It makes Christ claim as Lord of all an empty one, since He is at least not lord of your will.

This is not an order, it's an invitation -- and we're given the choice of whether or not to accept it.

Dead men do not accept invitations to anything. Like Lazarus, they must be called to life by Christ before they can come forth from the tomb. And we are more often than not compared to dead men being brought to spiritual life (Eph. 2:4,5).

For you sin is a sickness, like a cold, that with some fortitude we can overcome by the exercise of our "free will". For me, sin is death. Only a loving, benevolent, and sovereign God can cure spiritual death.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. … No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. … And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." (John 6:37,44,65)

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (John 10:29)


47 posted on 11/21/2008 1:16:59 PM PST by topcat54 ("In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria.")
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