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Is Sodomy No Longer a Sin?
American TFP ^

Posted on 11/10/2008 1:31:05 PM PST by Conservative Coulter Fan

And the men of Sodom were very wicked, and sinners before the face of the Lord, beyond measure (Gen. 13:13).

I. False Science, True Evil

A Standard of Sin

In our dark days, homosexuality, a shameful vice ever abhorred by the Christian conscience, finds prominent apologists within the very bosom of Holy Mother Church.

Sacred Scripture,1 Tradition, and the Magisterium have condemned few sins more consistently or severely than sodomy. The sins of Sodom and Gomorrha established a measure of evil by which other sins are judged, as recorded throughout the Holy Bible.2

Turning a deaf ear to these condemnations, proponents of perversion seek to sow confusion within the Church. To this end, they invoke deceptive interpretations - revisionist distortions - of Sacred Scripture. According to their self-serving rewriting of biblical history, Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed not because their inhabitants practiced unnatural vice, but because they were inhospitable to travelers.3

Sodomy's apologists have even dared to suggest the obscene blasphemy that Our Lord Jesus Christ was one of them. Sister Jeannine Gramick, co-founder of New Ways Ministry for Gay and Lesbian Catholics, has written:

Gay and lesbian people also look to the friendships of David and Jonathan, and Jesus and John. These stories hold up for lesbian and gay people a hope for a blessing for same-sex relationships or friendships.4

Pseudo-Science

The promoters of the homosexual agenda within the Church profess a pseudo-science in which homosexuality is neither pathological nor reversible, but a genetic and biological trait. According to this parody of science, sexual intimacy with the same sex is simply a normal variation, like left-handedness.

This deceptive fiction has been demolished by a number of systematic studies.5 It is also contradicted by the fact that a growing number of homosexuals have been treated and freed from the chains of their morally and psychologically disordered compulsions.6

Now, the militant call for homosexuals to "come out of the closet" and affirm their vice is being parroted within the ranks of the hierarchy.

In defense of the good name of our beloved Church, of the moral order ordained by Her Divine Founder, and of the innocent victims of this abominable vice, the American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property (TFP), appeals to the successors of the Apostles to combat this scandal and the scourge from which it arises.7

II. Sodomy: Sign of the Church's "Self-Destruction"

The Popes Speak

The homosexual wreckers within the Church must be viewed in the sad and somber context of Her "auto-demolition," of which Pope Paul VI observed:

The Church finds herself in an hour of disquiet, of self-criticism, one might even say of self-destruction. It is like an acute and complex interior upheaval, which no one expected after the Council. One thought of a blossoming, a serene expansion of the mature concepts of the Council. The Church still has this aspect of blossoming. But since "bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocumque defectu," the aspect of sorrow has become most notable. The Church is also being wounded by those who are part of her.8

His warning finds an empathetic echo in the soul of our Holy Father, who describes this self-destruction in our day:

One must be realistic and acknowledge with a deep and pained sentiment that a great part of today's Christians feel lost, confused, perplexed, and even disillusioned: ideas contradicting the revealed and unchanging Truth have been spread far and wide; outright heresies in the dogmatic and moral fields have been disseminated, creating doubt, confusion, and rebellion; even the liturgy has been altered. Immersed in intellectual and moral "relativism" and therefore in permissiveness, Christians are tempted by atheism, agnosticism, a vaguely moralistic illuminism, a sociological Christianity, without defined dogmas and without objective morality.9

Wolves in Sheep's Clothing

Homosexual predators, calling themselves "Catholic" while violating the most basic norms of Christian morals, further the "auto-demolition" of the Church. Their predation is rendered more deadly by the aid and comfort they receive from nuns, priests, and even bishops. Ravening wolves thus devour the weakest of the flock abandoned by their shepherds.

The American TFP commends The Wanderer for its service to the faithful in publishing Paul Likoudis's detailed and enlightening reports on the Mass celebrated for unrepentant homosexuals by Rochester's Bishop Matthew Clark in the Cathedral of the Sacred Heart10 and on the New Ways Ministry 4th National Symposium in Pittsburgh.11 The sad history chronicled by Mr. Likoudis amply evidences the homosexual revolution that threatens our Church and our Nation.

III. The Sodomites' Strategy: Avoid Causing a Reaction

New Ways for Old Sins

The New Ways Ministry conference set the homosexual lobby's plan of action, emphasizing the strategy of gradualism that marks the homosexual revolution. The objective of the sodomites' strategy is to avoid meaningful reaction by ecclesiastical authorities against the homosexual agenda.

Bishop Clark, in his tweed-suit and striped-shirt "clericals," encouraged conference participants: "If individuals change quite slowly, how slow is institutional change?" Driving home his brother bishop's message to those he dubbed "a loving group," Detroit Auxiliary Bishop Thomas Gumbleton added, "As Matthew said, even if we are frustrated sometimes with the slowness of change, we still must put up with that frustration as we continue to struggle to make it happen."12

Step-by-Step: The Descent in Hell

In the moral realm, the homosexual revolution proclaims the view that the sexual ethics professed by the Church are inevitably evolving to the stage where homosexual relations will be equal - if not superior - to heterosexual intimacy.

Prof. Joseph Selling, chairman of the Department of Moral Theology at the Catholic University of Louvain, gave the symposium a progress report on the gradualist strategy for the Church's acceptance of sodomy.

Is the teaching going to continue to evolve? With respect to the homosexual relationship, will it evolve toward encompassing it? Yes, it will! We have already taken the first step. Begrudgingly as we might like to admit, even the teaching of the Church has recognized the homosexual person, the homosexual orientation. It may be very uncomfortable with its own statements, but it's there! The homosexual person is a person and no less of a person than anyone else. This is the first step. The second step is the recognition of the homosexual relationship. I think we are virtually on the edge of accepting the homosexual relationship. The Church will accept the homosexual relationship, like those divorced and remarried: We must live as brother and sister or brother and brother and sister and sister as the case may be... [The audience laughs.] What is important is that the relationship be recognized as a valuable, fruitful, meaningful, affirmative, creative relationship. We are on the verge of accepting this. The third step is: Can we accept the homosexual act? Before we can talk about the morality of the homosexual act, we have to define it, to understand exactly what it is.... Our whole understanding of human sexuality needs to be rewritten, but rewritten not from a "procreative or reproductive" point of view. It needs to be rewritten from a "relational" point of view.13

Gradualism was a thread woven throughout the fabric of the New Ways for old sins symposium, as was the abhorrence sterile vice accords fruitful love. Sr. Margaret Farley, R.S.M., of Yale University, made clear the reason for the sodomites' fear and loathing of the sacramental love that gives birth to life and preserves chastity.

As long as the Christian sexual ethic was focused on "procreation" and the "control of sexual desire," there was no room for a positive evaluation of homosexuality. But in recent decades, under the pressure of new discoveries in the social sciences and scientific fields, traditional Catholic sexual morality is crumbling. Now, the "procreative norm" is gone, the rigid stereotype of male/female complementarity is gone, and the time is ripe for a positive evaluation of homosexuality and same-sex relations.14

A Homosexual Pastoral

Religion provides the surest yardstick by which human acts may be measured. Unlike such continua as healthy/diseased, virtuous/sinful reflects a transcendent reality that bears directly on conscience. Sinfulness is a particularly relevant construct since it addresses not only an act's rationality but also its effects on the universal order.

The moral standards taught by religion are the single most important factor in the virtually universal rejection of homosexual vice. Accordingly, those promoting the homosexual agenda strive to change the traditional Church teachings that constitute its principal obstacle.

Astute sodomites know that before changes can deconstruct and deviate doctrine, they must be put into practice. According to the homosexual revolution, pastoral practice should not be governed by Christian sexual ethics but by an erroneous view of social justice in which the Church has the duty to defend the civil rights of practicing homosexuals as homosexuals.15

Fr. Richard Peddicord, O.P., professor of moral theology at the Aquinas Institute of Theology in St. Louis, described the rationale for a homosexual pastoral at the New Ways symposium.

Catholic sexual ethics do not have the conceptual tools to say how homosexuals should be treated by civil society. The issue of homosexual rights should be considered under social justice.16

A homosexual pastoral, Father Peddicord continued, "should not be satisfied with repeating the moral condemnations of gay sex, but advance the civil rights of homosexuals."

According to its advocates, a homosexual pastoral "should provide a supportive atmosphere for a stable relationship." A significant step in this direction was given by certain "pastoral guidelines" that defend "the stable, faithful, and committed homosexual relationships" as "a better moral situation than promiscuity."17

As early as 1979, the bishops of England and Wales offered pastoral guidelines urging pastors to distinguish between "irresponsible, indiscriminate sexual activity and the permanent association between two homosexual persons who feel incapable of enduring a solitary life devoid of sexual expression."18

In the homosexual pastoral, the distinction between "homosexual orientation" and "homosexual behavior" is challenged. "The bishops," according to Fr. Robert Nugent and Sr. Jeannine Gramick,

honestly acknowledge that the difference is "not always clearly convincing." They are undoubtedly aware that while many people find the distinction useful in teaching and counseling programs on homosexuality, they do not find it particularly helpful in the pastoral field or fully congruent with the experiences of gay and lesbian Catholics.19

A New Liberation Theology

In 1969, the Stonewall Riots in New York City unleashed a major homosexual offensive. From this disorder sprang "lesbian/gay theology," which now dominates many Catholic universities and seminaries.

Like liberation theology, much in vogue in Latin America before the collapse of the Soviet Union, homosexual theology is a "theology from below." Both theologies arise from a praxis (experience) and a purportedly scientific analysis of that experience.

Liberation theology used Marxist analysis of the socioeconomic conditions in Third World countries to establish its theological and hermeneutical principles, which provided a sympathetic ideology for guerrilla movements fighting to impose communism on their fellow man.

Homosexual theology is a new liberation theology that uses the praxis of the "lesbian/gay experience" to liberate man from the bonds of Christian morals.

As Father Nugent and Sister Gramick, the co-founders of New Ways Ministry, boast,

Lesbian/gay theology is an example of authentic subversion. It involves a real turning from below with a scriptural analysis from the underside of society. Since God's spirit is continually revealing truth to the human heart, the scriptures contain some insights that can be made known to the Christian community only through the testimony of lesbian and gay people.20

Such a spurious interpretation of Sacred Scripture was echoed by Bishop Gumbleton at the New Ways symposium.

I learned from reading an article by Andrew Sullivan in America magazine a few years ago, where he was speaking about his own experience of learning how to love within his context of being a gay man. When he was asked by his friend, "Do you really believe that what we are doing is wrong? Because if you do, I cannot go on with this," he says, "Of course I was forced to say I do not believe at some level." You see what Andrew Sullivan is telling us? He found God in his experience as a gay man. We know that God is love, and where there is love, there is God. And Andrew Sullivan tells us that his experience is that he finds God where he finds love.21

Call to Action: "Come Out!"

Declaring that "The time is ripe," Bishop Gumbleton called on homosexuals "to share their gifts" with fellow Catholics since "this is how our Church is going to change."

The most important thing that we can do in our pastoral care is to create a church community where gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people can be truly open about who they are.... I think it is very, very important that they experience a warmth and oneness within the Church to allow them to share their gifts with our Church.... I encourage this because I hope that within our Church, every gay person, every lesbian person, every bisexual or transgendered person will come out, because that is how our Church is going to truly change: when everyone who from this community of homosexual people is courageous enough, because it does take courage to come out.... I would say this especially to bishops and priests within our Church. I cannot tell you the number of letters I have received in the last few years from priests who say they are gay, but are afraid to come out. What a loss this is to our Church! Because if they were willing to stand up on a Sunday morning in front of their community and to say who they really are, our Church could much more fully and quickly appreciate the gifts that homosexuals can bring to the whole community of our Church and to our society as well.... As more and more people come out, more families are changed, more churches are changed, more parishes are changed, and our whole Church is changed. And so I appeal here publicly to all of us within the Church to create a community in which this can happen. But then, for those who are gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgendered, please come forward. Say who you are, be proud of who you are, and share all of your gifts with our Church.22

IV. Invoking the Abyss

As an uncompromised champion of the Faith, Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira advises in his seminal treatise Revolution and Counter-Revolution:

Disordered passions, moving in a crescendo analogous to the acceleration of gravity and feeding upon their own works, lead to consequences which in their turn develop according to a proportional intensity. In like progression, errors beget errors, and revolutions prepare the way for revolutions.... This explains why we find ourselves today in such a paroxysm of impiety and immorality and such an abyss of disorder and discord.23

Sacred Scripture warns, "Abyssus abyssum invocat" - "Deep calleth on deep" (Ps. 41:8).

"Celebrate Diversity" proclaims a bumper sticker popular among the sodomites and their apologists. The practice of homosexual vice inevitably descends into the lowest depths of the moral abyss. From pedophilia to sadomasochism, any and all abominations - even bestiality - find justification in the perverse school of sexual deviance. In the upside-down world of the homosexual pastoral, could a homosexual "find God" through the "interspecies love" of bestiality? Such questions are only prudent in view of the fact that we are witnessing the gradual acceptance of homosexuality as a legitimate way of life, not only in secular society but within the Church. This process of auto-demolition - of Church and State - constitutes an authentic and cataclysmic revolution to which we are unalterably opposed.

V. An Appeal to Our Ecclesiastical Authorities

Along with contraception, abortion, and euthanasia, homosexual vice is an integral weapon of the Culture of Death aimed at our families, our Nation, and our Church.

In face of this danger to all we hold dear, the American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family, and Property, comprised of practicing Catholics dedicated to defending the moral standards of Christian civilization, is obliged to publicly appeal to our ecclesiastical authorities to employ urgent and energetic measures against the advance of the homosexual agenda within the Church.

We also respectfully direct our appeal to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, filially imploring this sacred dicastery to effectively denounce and condemn the pernicious doctrinal errors against Catholic morality that are being taught with impunity in many dioceses and seminaries, as well as in Catholic schools and universities across the country.

In so doing, we defend our beloved Nation against the perversion and loss of its soul. We also defend our even more beloved Holy Mother Church by demanding that Her clergy, and in particular Her bishops, teach what the Church and Her Divine Master teach.

May the Blessed Virgin Mary, conceived without sin, Patroness of the United States, protect us from this terrible onslaught of perversity.

The American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property - (TFP)

_______________
Notes:
1Gen. 18:20; 19:12-13, 24-25, 27-28.
2Lev. 18:22-29; Is. 3:9; Rom. 1:24-27, 32; 1 Cor. 6:9-10; 1 Tim. 1:9-10; 2 Pet. 2:6-9; Jude 1:7.
3Robert Nugent and Jeannine Gramick, Building Bridges (Mystic, Conn.: Twenty-Third Publications, 1995), p. 10.
4Sr. Jeannine Gramick, "Can Gays and Lesbians Come Out to be Faithful Catholics?" (U.S. Catholic, August 1992, p. 11).
5See Charles W. Socarides, M.D., Homosexuality: A Freedom Too Far (Phoenix: Adam Margrave Books, 1995).
6For information on how one can turn away from homosexuality, contact one of the following organizations: Beyond Rejection Ministries, Hemet, Calif., 714-925-0028; Courage, New York, N.Y., 212-421-0426; Homosexuals Anonymous Fellowship Services, Redding, Calif., 1-800-253-3000.
7In so doing we are exercising the right and duty proclaimed in Canon 212, #3: "In accord with the knowledge, competence and preeminence which they [the Christian faithful] possess, they have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard for the integrity of faith and morals and reverence towards their pastors, and with consideration for the common good and dignity of persons" (The Code of Canon Law, A Text and Commentary, James A. Coriden, Thomas J. Green, and Donald E. Heintschel, eds. [New York: Paulist Press, 1985]).
8Allocution to the students of the Lombard Seminary, December 7, 1968, Insegnamenti di Paolo VI, vol. 10, pp. 707-709.
9John Paul II, Allocution to the religious and priests participating in the First Italian National Congress on Missions to the People for the 80s, February 6, 1981 (L'Osservatore Romano, February 7, 1981).
10The Wanderer, March 1, 1997.
11Ibid., March 20, 1997.
12Bishop Matthew Clark and Bishop Thomas Gumbleton, "Pastoral Care of Lesbian and Gay People," Plenary Session, New Ways Ministry 4th National Symposium, Pittsburgh, March 7-9, 1997.
13Joseph Selling, "The Meanings of Human Sexuality," New Ways Ministry 4th National Symposium.
14Sr. Margaret Farley, R.S.M., "Same-Sex Relations: An Ethical Perspective," New Ways Ministry 4th National Symposium.
15The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith states in "Some Considerations Concerning the Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-discrimination of Homosexual Persons," of July 22, 1992: "Including `homosexual orientation' among the considerations on the basis of which it is illegal to discriminate can easily lead to regarding homosexuality as a positive source of human rights, for example, in respect to so-called affirmative action or preferential treatment in hiring practices. This is all the more deleterious since there is no right to homosexuality, which therefore should not form the basis for judicial claims. The passage from the recognition of homosexuality as a factor on which basis it is illegal to discriminate can easily, if not automatically, lead to the legislative protection and promotion of homosexuality. A person's homosexuality would be invoked in opposition to alleged discrimination, and thus the exercise of rights would be defended precisely via the affirmation of the homosexual condition instead of in terms of a violation of basic human rights" (no. 13).
16Fr. Richard Peddicord, O.P., "Catholic Moral Teaching on Gay and Lesbian Rights Legislation," New Ways Ministry 4th National Symposium.
17Nugent and Gramick, p. 143.
18Catholic Social Welfare Commission (Britain), 1981, p. 8.
19Nugent and Gramick, p. 144.
20Ibid., p. 190.
21Bishops Clark and Gumbleton, op. cit.
22Ibid.
23Revolution and Counter-Revolution, 3rd ed. (York, Penn.: The American TFP, 1993), p. 30.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: homosexualagenda; tfp
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

What is this word “sin” you speak of? /s


81 posted on 11/11/2008 4:34:30 PM PST by murphE ("It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged." - GK Chesterton)
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To: Citizen Blade; little jeremiah
Sodomy falls into that secondary category- it is certainly a sin under the Judeo-Christian Bible, but it does not harm anyone other than, potentially, the people involved.

Wrong...when this segment of society forces their views as somehow normal upon children, it's called psychological child abuse, and then there's AIDS...which ALL of us pay for with tax dollars...first it harmed no one, then the goal posts were moved and now it harms "potentially" those involved.

Trouble is, they're busily making sure EVERYONE is involved by forcing their sick lifestyle on society.And now we have new efforts to ram their sickness into the military putting every citizen in the country in jeopardy!

82 posted on 11/11/2008 4:40:45 PM PST by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: tpanther; Citizen Blade

Citizen Blade is a pro-homosexual newbie.

CB - read up using the keyword or STFU. And I mean that with all due respect. I checked a page of your other comments and you stated that it was fine that schools have kindergarten kids sign “non-gay harrasment” cards.

You support the “gay” agenda and don’t belong on FR. If your support is ignorance of the gay agenda, then study up. If you don’t want to study up, then you’re on the wrong forum.


83 posted on 11/11/2008 4:50:54 PM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, come to the light.)
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To: little jeremiah; Citizen Blade
Sheesh - do you live in the 50s, or what? Obviously not on the west coast or in any large city with a large homosexual population. Lewdness in the streets? It’s SOP.

I’ve been driven out of beaches and parks because of people practicing sodomy. There are public restrooms closed down on I-5 because of people practicing sodomy. There is a whole rest room culture of people practicing sodomy. You can’t be serious that people are arrested for “public lewdness” any more. Maybe if they run around small town USA naked but not in many places.

no kidding...the normal people in Tallahassee Florida IIRC are freaking out because their liberal looney toon mayor thinks it's OK for men who are confused about their sexuality to use bathrooms marked female.

Oblivious to the fact that normal people can not for the life of them believe we even live in a country where any of the OBVIOUS ramifications can't be seen by even a 5 year old child!

CAN YOU IMAGINE how unglued a man would become if a perv was in the rest room and his little girl was approached by one of these lunatics, OR WORSE? I don't know if the cops could get to the perv in time if it was my kid and then I'd go to jail, the girl would lose her Dad, all because some lunatic liberal mayor thinks it's wise to re-structure our culture!!!!????? AND gets off scott free????

Not to mention, how could such a lunatic mayor determine if a heterosexual male, dressed in a skirt, just so he could exploit the situation, was waiting inside to ambush females?

Talk about Pandora's box!

Unfortunately, we're about to see that box fully opened on Jan 20th 2009.

A(nother) date which will live in infamy!

I'm convinced we're headed for another civil war at some point.

Trouble is...what do we call it? "The sane vs. the insane" is all I can think of! Liberalism is truly a disease!

84 posted on 11/11/2008 4:57:25 PM PST by tpanther (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke)
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To: Natural Law; little jeremiah

It’s more than a matter of *rights*. Homosexual behavior has resulted in a plethora of health issues that have had quite an impact on society. It is no more a victimless crime than any other.


85 posted on 11/11/2008 6:00:10 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Citizen Blade; little jeremiah
But we don't criminalize sins, not generally.

Of course, we do. Every law on the books that I can think of is to prevent someone from doing something wrong.

Our laws are generally aimed at protecting the person or property of another from being victimized.

It criminalizes things like murder, theft, destruction of property. IOW, sin.

86 posted on 11/11/2008 6:09:39 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Natural Law; Warlord David
If it can be demonstrated that an otherwise private act poses a real threat then it no longer maintains the qualifier of not intruding onto the rights of others.

AIDS/HIV

87 posted on 11/11/2008 6:14:09 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The homosexual activists were on their most defensible ground when they said "This is a private matter keep your nose out of our bedroom. It's none of your business."

Then they should keep their bedroom out of public life and out of the government.

If it's not my business, why am I being forced to confront it and demanded that I accept it?

88 posted on 11/11/2008 6:21:16 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
"AIDS/HIV "

You really should do some research on the risks and rates of heterosexual HIV/AIDS. You will find the numbers very low and the phenomenon highly overstated.

89 posted on 11/11/2008 8:16:37 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law; little jeremiah

It should be nonexistent.

It started with them. If it weren’t for homosexual sex, there would be ZERO AIDS/HIV.

Not to mention the beating up of old ladies, NAMBLA, pushing the homosexual agenda in schools, the higher rate of child molestation than the hetero population, the higher rate of drug use, the political activism of trying to force acceptance of gay marriage.

The *as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else* argument fails miserably, because aside from the physical impact in health, there’s the emotional impact in destroyed families. It hurts people in more ways than one.

No good comes out of the homosexual lifestyle. It’s not a victimless activity no matter how much some people wish it was.


90 posted on 11/11/2008 8:27:58 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
"It should be..."

The argument isn't about what you want the law to be, the argument is about what the law actually is. Can you propose a solid conservative approach for codifying your specific religious philosophy, and no one elses, within the confines of the constitution?

91 posted on 11/11/2008 8:36:05 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law; metmom

I’ve already taken apart the “specific religious philosophy” and as usual, the pro-”gay” people ignore it. Read this twice:

Every single monotheistic religion in the history of the world (and many that aren’t such as Buddhism and even Taoism) set limits on sexual behavior with specific condemnation of same sex acts - which includes sodomy, generally meaning in this case anal “sex” (I use “” since it isn’t sex but that’s another detail).

Every single one.

This is not sectarian, it is natural law, and your name should inform your intelligence. Obviously it does not. There are universal moral principles that are virtually the same in every religion in the world.

I guess it’s time for my essay on the subject, been thinking about it for a long time.


92 posted on 11/11/2008 8:42:29 PM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, come to the light.)
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To: metmom

Amazing how the pro-homo agenda folks all say the same thing over and over and over, same thing for years, and then never, EVER address any logical arguments?

They’re like zombies, mindlessly repeating their talking points. I have zero patience for them. I lost all my good links and facts and stuff with three computer deaths, I guess it’s about time to put togehter some more files for the idiots.


93 posted on 11/11/2008 8:44:31 PM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, come to the light.)
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To: little jeremiah
You seem to confuse my understanding of the law with an advocacy position. I do find homosexuality unnatural, but not unlawful.

As long as you want to discuss Natural Law can you agree that if God created everything He created homosexuality and He could eliminate it at any time, but hasn't. God also created free will so that we had the choice to reject what is evil and what is wrong. Are you asserting that you have the right to interfere?

94 posted on 11/11/2008 8:52:12 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

He created souls who have free will, the free will to choose wrong. He also created the law of karma, or as you sow, so shall you reap. So those who choose wrong (in whatever field of endeavor) will suffer the results (varying kinds) so that hopefully they will learn better.

You have presented no argument as to why homosexuality should NOT be unlawful, or to be specific, sodomy, since that is the topic of this thread.

Throughout history it HAS been unlawful, and was declared to be lawful only a few years ago, in a manufactured lawsuit fostered by the ACLU.

Sodomy is against natural law for many reasons. Read up about how it destroys health if you do not know. Taoist masters and the Vedas teach that it causes psychopathology of the worst kinds, increases violence and aggression, and we all know the devastation health issues.

I am not going to go into a dissertation of why the “gay” agenda is harmful to everyone. But the only reasons anyone can come up with for sodomy being lawful are childish, unreasonable, with no historical or rational foundation. Acutally all reasons I’ve seen are self-contradictory such as “you can’t legislate morality” and crap like that.

What THAT means is “leave sex out of it”. Why, one asks? Answer: “Because. Just because”. Reminds me of third grade.


95 posted on 11/11/2008 9:07:27 PM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, come to the light.)
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To: little jeremiah

Just realized I didn’t address this part of your statement.

If you say that God created homosexuality and I shouldn’t “interfere”, then you should also say that He created torture, murder, child molestation and all the rest and no one should “interfere”.

What a ridiculous so-called argument.


96 posted on 11/11/2008 9:09:26 PM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, come to the light.)
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To: little jeremiah
"You have presented no argument as to why homosexuality should NOT be unlawful......"

OK, but you have presented no argument as to how homosexuality can be made to be illegal within the constitution. That genie is out of the bottle.

97 posted on 11/11/2008 9:28:22 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law; little jeremiah; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
As long as you want to discuss Natural Law can you agree that if God created everything He created homosexuality and He could eliminate it at any time, but hasn't. God also created free will so that we had the choice to reject what is evil and what is wrong.

WHOA!!!!

God did not "create" homosexuality! God is not the author of evil and sin.

God created sex. Man corrupted it by the wrong use of his free will.

It is not only unnatural, but also unlawful. It violates God's laws that He established. He's made that very clear in His word both in the OT and NT.

Are you asserting that you have the right to interfere?

The best way for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. Yes, men have free will, but there's nothing stopping someone from warning people of the consequences of their evil behavior and trying to influence them to stop it. That is a very thinly disguised pro-homosexual argument; along the lines of saying that the government has no business defining marriage.

98 posted on 11/12/2008 5:25:03 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Unless the private act goes public. And you end up with an angry mob. And it always does.


99 posted on 11/12/2008 5:47:45 AM PST by Warlord David
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To: Warlord David; little jeremiah

Well, it has gone public.

Those making the biggest stink about the privacy of it all, are now those making the biggest stink about making it public. And legalizing ALL aspects of it. And demanding that it be accepted. They’re even getting it classified as a hate crime to speak out against it.

How ironic that those who make the biggest deal about making laws about “private” behavior, endorse making laws about any behavior; even behavior clearly protected by the First Amendment (free speech).


100 posted on 11/12/2008 6:12:33 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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