Posted on 11/01/2008 4:04:39 PM PDT by NYer
God save us from the self-appointed experts in the “calculus of salvation.”
That means that antagonistic posts are not allowed on this thread. Click on my profile page for more guidelines pertaining to the Religion Forum.
Actually the natural man can very easily accept the idea of purgatory. Penance, suffering, works, corrections of imbalance, these are the obligations most of us live with in our daily lives. What the natural man can’t live with is the notion that Christ has spilled his blood freely for our sakes, that his gift is our simply for the asking for his forgiveness and by repentence of our sins, baptism by his spirit and following by water, then living for him day by day. It is hard for the sinful man to even fathom that to die in Christ is to be alive with Christ forever. The natural man doesn’t want to feel obligated...we must “pay” some-how for our God given gifts; never mind just the simple acts of love and faith are all that he asks of us and to be willing to share the gospel.
Now no one knows the spiritual transactions that take place following death completely and the near death experiences I read about either speak of folks in heaven “saying go back its not your time yet” or folks in hell being sent back after experiencing the profound grace of Christ.
One experience I read about...man found himself in hell fighting demons who were tearing him apart but he remembered a little prayer he had prayed in sunday school as a small child(he had been otherwise unchurched all his life and was a thoroughly evil man)...all of sudden a light shown on him and the devils left him and he found himself in HIS presence. The man was sent back and was a changed Christian man as a result.
I have not seen any NDE’s involving folks who saw or experienced a taste of purgatory, though I’ll bet some freeper will now send me one.
The scriptures state that “it is appointed once that men should die and then the judgment”. I do believe God acts tactically and in the moment to pluck folks from the flames as well as providentially in his over arching manner.
There is the Judgment seat of Christ where all saved folks go to have their works judged..if they be spiritual they are not burned up, if they be not spiritual they are burned. Some have received eternal life by “the skin of their teeth”.
The great white throne judgment is the final judgment following the end of the 1000 years of Christ. Revelations states those who had remained unresurrected after the resurrection of the dead in Christ 1000 years before, are then brought before him and those not found in the Lamb’s book of life are sent to hell period.
These great judgments found in the Bible belie the notions of purgatory as currently promulgated. Yet I beleive God in his great mercy will act to save folks right on the verge of the flames of hell if even a child’s prayer or a desparing faith is displayed on an otherwise unrighteous man, such as the thief on a cross!
We are asked to carry our crosses but he promises that even that “My yoke shall be easy, my burden is light”. Christ’s blood has washed our sins away, it is that blood that has made us “Holy and acceptable to God”...not purgatory!
I ask forgiveness for any grief i have caused. In the end we serve a great God who loves us all, in ways we can never fathom! I meant no harshness.
Fairy tales. There is no purgatory; and by that, I am not talking about the word “purgatory”, but it’s existence. I will only believe the bible; nothing else. A lot of people could go to hell, thinking that they will stop by purgatory, and be ‘cleansed’ of their sins and impurities. Christ died once and for all, and shed his blood once and for all. I agree that we disagree, but right now, we need to concentrate on defeating obama.
8 years of Obama....that would be purgatory enough!
McCain/Palin all the way!
“In 1 Cor. 15:29-30, Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised).”
I didn’t bother to finish reading your post since you obviously have a serious problem interpreting the verse you quoted. What you think it says is totally opposite of what Paul was referring to.
And what happens to those who 'slip' in the process; someone who generaly leads a good life but occasionally lies to his boss or cheats on his wife? What happens to him at death? What about Hitler - a baptized christian?
In Matt. 12:32, Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Excellent! Then you also believe in the Sacrament of Penance (John 20:22-23) and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (John 6:51-56).
Christ died once and for all, and shed his blood once and for all.
The doctrine of "Once Save, Always Saved" is fairly new, originating in the 16th century. The perfect example of how this doctrine is false is Judas Iscariot. He believed in Jesus Christ, walked with Him, was one of the Twelve and was given the same powers from Him as the others. Yet what Christian believes that Judas Iscariot went to Heaven? You would have to believe Judas is in Heaven as he more than met the requirements of salvation according to this doctrine. Another good example is Lucifer (Satan). He abided in Heaven, knew God Himself, lived with God Himself yet he was not "saved" when given the opportunity for he now resides in Hell as punishment for the sin of pride. This sin occurred after having known and accepted God. If anything, this doctrine helps Satan greatly by instilling a false sense of security and self-confidence among Christians concerning their salvation.
Matthew 24:13 states "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." In other words, he who endures the struggles of sin in his life and repents for those sins, will be saved.
Interestingly enough, what came surfacing to mind when reading that, was the time/place where the demons came to drag off the body of Moses. But the Angel rebuked them. I hugh-ly & series-ly doubt the demons were going to drag Moses off to "purgatory".
That seems a guess or "reasonings and assumptions" of man. One needs to torture the text (and make assumptions upon which to base yet more assumption upon) to wring the idea out of the texts.
To other, simpler "explanations" we perhaps should instead believe, as to possible afterlife "condition", if one not be either in Heaven, or in Hell;
There was some other condition or place mentioned in the Word.
Where the previous godly "slept". There is other evidence of this "sleeping", in the texts also. One was "wakened" from this slumber (sleep of the dead) by some sort of spiritualist, or medium. Remember that one? Right now, It escapes me, precisely where that portion of text is --- but was it done on the behest of King Saul? It was error, though, to go waking up the dead. That rang through pretty clear.
Please don't ask me to provide the direct references, for I'd have to go digging for it, and the last time I gave reasonable answer to a question from you, I received no response. Remember? At least that time, it was easy enough. All I had to do was quote the article which was quoting the Pope.
Maybe someone else here will remember the incident I'm referring to concerning the medium, and bring us the scripture reference.
So sorry but I don't remember. I post and am pinged to so many threads each day that oftentimes, I miss some of them. I ask for references because non-Catholics always ask them from us ;-)
While I do not recall the story to which your refer, I did recall one of my favorite gospels of Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:19-31. In this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
The Bible states that God also buried Moses in a land that no one knew until “this” day(meaning the Days in which the pentateuch was penned). Sounds like there was more to the story, but except for the obscure passage from the NT that you mentioned, we know nothing else. Actually that passage you refer to is a caution against judgmentalism, “even Michael when disputing with Satan concerning the body of Moses durst not bring railing accusation against him!”
You seem to be attempting to point to the suffering rich man's compassion, while simultaneously claiming "there is no compassion in hell", to attempt to prove your point?
That's thin. Since it's otherwise clear that there will be suffering and regrets in hell, then why the argument that the sufferer, would not want others to suffer? Just because he, himself finds no solace there?
This legalistic reasoning you offer to justify your position, is very much the assumptions I was mentioning, which one must employ to build up this doctrine of purgatory.
Perhaps you are confusing the suffering soul not being able to find "solace", in hell, or find any compassion among the demons, for the sufferer, with the suffering soul, themselves?
This claim that; the Lord took away their ability for compassion is exactly the type of man-made, legalistic, extra-biblical mumbo jumbo that irks the "other than Roman Catholic" portions of Christianity.
Psalm 139;8
By the reasonings you've offered;
Then we must assume that when the Lord Himself descend into Hell, He left all His compassion behind? That's silly.
Hey, Christ did descend, was there for three days, right? He preached the Gospel to the captives there, according to the Word. So, using your own sort of reasonings, your Purgatory thesis fails.
Going by the scripture reference you have mentioned, (Lazarus and the rich man) not only does it state;
It also mentions, concerning when Lazarus himself passed on, where he "was", and it wasn't "purgatory", either;
(ok, I know you didn't say Lazarus was in purgatory --- but it doesn't say, "send Lazarus down from heaven, either)
Which is what some theologians are referring to, when they say, "the bosom of Abraham", which is the very alternative to the Heaven/Hell-with-purgatory-in-between limitation of afterlife possibility of abode, which I pointed at.
The "bosom of Abraham" doesn't sound quite like heaven, does it? Not compared to say, what the witness of the apostle Paul (concerning his own experience of being transported for a time) speaks towards what heaven is like. No mention of his seeing Abraham there...
In other portions of the Word, folks are said to "be sleeping" in the "bosom of Abraham".
Still, not only, not even the "word" purgatory, but not even the concept is addressed.
Don't you think that if this really were some sort of "true" doctrine which we should believe, wouldn't Christ have mentioned it, while he was here with us, telling us in many ways, what His Father's Kingdom was like?
I told you in #5, that your own post #4 "left something important out".
Not only that, but your #4 also went against what the Pope himself was saying...
In #7 I showed you what you left out. You did ask.
Excellent. CS Lewis cuts right to the chase. Thanks for the quotes.
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