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To: maryz
Seculum is defined in Latin dictionaries as meaning: 1) a generation, 2) an age, 3) the world, 4) the times, 5) the spirit of the times, and 6) a period of a hundred years.

Except for 6), this is pretty much the range of meaning my Hebrew dictionary (Alcalay) gives for olam: "world, humanity, space, community, existence, assembly, pleasures of life [cf. "the world, the flesh and the devil" -- just my note], eternity, ages, distant future."

Not bad. However, that dictionary contains modern words that were added to the definition over a long period of time. The Hebrew of the first century, the time that the Christian era started, did not use "olam" to designate the English words listed in your quotation above - other than the term "space" connected to "time". Let me bring out what a couple of Lexicographers have found:

Schleusner defines the noun aion as: "Any space of time, whether longer or shorter, past, preent, or future, to be determinded by the persons or things spoken of, and the scope of the subject - the life or age of man; and space (of time) in which we measure human life, from birth to death." (Preliminary Discussions, Chapter 6, part 2).

Another lexicographer, Schrevelius says, "Aion: an age, a long period of time; indefinite duration; time, whether longer or shorter, past present or future; life, the life of man. Aionios: of long duration, lasting, sometimes everlasting, sometimes lasting through life." Note: his use of "everlasting" is in reference to an unknown duration, but covering a "very long period of time."

I quote from Ken's book again: "We could add multiple quotes, enough to fill a book in itself, to show that the meanings of the Greek words translated 'everlasting, forever, eternal,' etc., does not mean 'endless,' but simply mean an indefinite time, longer or shorter, past or future - and that they take their duration from the subjects or persons to which they apply. 'Endless' is not an idea put forth in the noun aion and its adjective aionios, but becasuse the subject demands it or is of itself endless, i.e., God. Just as in ancient times, people today often say things like 'His speech went on forever', and 'It took forever to get my house painted.' These same types of expressions were also used in the Bible for events that lasted a long time, but not actually endlessly, eternally, or forever. But we do see that the events using the term 'forever, eternal, endless' ended, but had everlastng consequence." - [the meaning of the late Latin "aeternum" in part. For it is now thought to have the meaning of "never ending". My addition.]

"World" seems to be the most basic meaning (whatever "world" meant to the ancient Jews!). In the Midrash, a very common periphrasis for God is "Mi she'amar v'hayah ha-olam" -- He Who spoke and the world was," which sounds as if it encompasses all Creation. Ha-olam ha-ba is also in Rabbinic Hebrew for "the world to come."

I take it the above is something you are quoting, right? This is a late addition of language to the terms used. The Midrash is a commentary on the Talmud which was originated in Babylon by the Pharisees sect of Judaism. The OT does not contain any references to a "world to come."

Just a note on sæcula -- the phrase in sæcula sæculorum (lit. "in ages of ages") is very, very common in liturgical Latin for "forever." I don't know if a construction like "olam olamim" occurs in the Bible, but I think it's likely, since it's a common Hebrew structure, as in shir ha-shirim, Song of Songs. In fact, I believe the structure appears in English only because it was lifted from the Bible.

No, "olam olamim" does not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures, or at last my search program does not find it. However what you bring up is interesting. Please continue...

11 posted on 10/21/2008 7:26:13 PM PDT by Truth Defender (History teaches, if we but listen to it; but no one really listens!)
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To: Truth Defender; Mad Dawg
I'm not sure why you comment on olam briefly and without support, and then go on to expand on aion . . . am I missing something? Did you leave something out? Olam is a noun, not an adverb, so it doesn't stand alone: the formulation is usually "l'olam" ("l-" meaning "to") but often "ad olam" ("ad" meaning "to"), and often expanded to "me'olam ad olam" (or "me'olam l'olam" -- "me-" meaning "from") and translated "from everlasting to everlasting," not really strict philosphical expression! Also consider Ecclesiastes 3:11: He hath made every thing beautiful in its time; also He hath set the world in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end. "World" here is olam.

Strong's associates olam with a root meaning hidden or concealed.

I take it the above is something you are quoting, right? This is a late addition of language to the terms used. The Midrash is a commentary on the Talmud which was originated in Babylon by the Pharisees sect of Judaism. The OT does not contain any references to a "world to come."

Actually I'm not quoting, except what I'm remembering from the dozen or so Midrash-based courses I took when I was studying Hebrew! I have no idea where you got the idea that the Midrash is a commentary on the Talmud, unless you're thinking of the Mishnah, technically part of the Talmud, but the term Talmud is often used interchangeably with the more proper Gemara. In any case, Talmud/Mishnah deal exclusively with the law, halakha.

Midrash is also part of the oral tradition and probably first started to be written down in the first century BC, though of course organized collections didn't start until after the destruction of the Second Temple. There are halakhic Midrash, but all the course I had were on aggadic Midrash, not at all dealing with the law, though there's lots on narratives from the Torah -- mostly commentary on verses from the prophets or Psalms. And while a physical manuscript can be dated, it's a lot harder to date an oral tradition preceding it.

The OT does not contain any references to a "world to come."

It doesn't contain any references to resurrection either, except in 2 Maccabees, which Protestants don't accept as canonical. The Pharisees of Jesus' time, however, believed in it. In Matthew 12:32, Jesus mentions the world to come, so presumably it was a concept understood by the Jews of the time.

No, "olam olamim" does not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures,

You cited above le-natsach netsachim -- same structure. Netsach can be used adverbially, but is sometimes a noun. I Samuel 15:29 has Netsach Israel, which is translated "The Eternal One of Israel." Alcalay says it originally meant "glory."

And edey ed occurs in Psalms 92:3 ("eternities of eternity"?). Ed may have the best claim to meaning "eternity" in the required sense: see Isaiah 57:15 -- שֹׁכֵן עַד (shochen ed), "[Who] inhabits eternity."

Another OT locution usually translated as "forever" is l'orekh yamim (lit. "for length of days"), as at the end of Psalm 23.

I may have more to add later, but I think I need a cup of tea now!

19 posted on 10/22/2008 9:37:30 AM PDT by maryz
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