Posted on 10/07/2008 8:41:53 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
The pages of failed end-of-the-world prophecies could make up a whole new testament. Now there's the Rev. David Jeremiah, an East County mega-pastor and TV evangelist who says the end is coming, in the words of a familiar church song, “soon and very soon.”
In a new book that hit bookstores this week, Jeremiah offers 10 “prophetic clues” he says point to an imminent conclusion many Christians have clung to for 2,000 years – the Rapture (when the faithful will be summoned instantly into Heaven), followed by the Tribulation (a seven-year period of turmoil), Armageddon (the final battle of good versus evil) and the Second Coming of Jesus (to reign on Earth).
Jeremiah doesn't set a date in “What in the World Is Going On?” (Thomas Nelson; $22.99). But his urgency is clear: “His return is close at hand,” he writes, adding that Christians should be motivated “as never before to live in readiness.”
“I have no intention of setting any dates or saying this is when this is going to happen,” Jeremiah says, settling back on a couch in his office at Turning Point, his international television and radio ministry headquartered in Lakeside.
“All I'm saying is some of the things that the word of God prophesied would take place as we near this time are happening in ways you cannot contradict.”
The 67-year-old senior pastor of Shadow Mountain Community Church in El Cajon, where he preaches to 7,000 people at weekend services, says he was motivated to write this book after so many people kept questioning him about world events.
He reached out to other biblical prophecy scholars for their thoughts. Among them was Tim LaHaye, co-author of the best-selling “Left Behind” series of Christian apocalyptic novels. In 1981, Jeremiah followed LaHaye as senior pastor of Scott Memorial Baptist Church, which later became Shadow Mountain.
The 10 signs Jeremiah settled on range from the emergence of Israel as the dominant country-of-residence for Jews and the rise in power of Russia and Iran to the world's reliance on Middle Eastern oil and the coming together of countries under the European Union.
“I'm not a sensationalist,” says Jeremiah, a grandfather and two-time cancer survivor who is a well-known speaker at evangelical venues like the Billy Graham Training Center.
“I would be the last person in the world to try to draw sensationalist truths from the Scripture,” he adds. “You can get a crowd if you know how to frame your stuff, but I'm past all that. I don't need to do that. But what I do know is this: This is a different day unlike anything that I've ever known, unlike anything the world has ever known. So what does that mean?”
What it means for him is that conversion efforts need to be jump-started like a battery in a long-idled sedan.
“We've forgotten that there's an urgency about what we've been called to do,” he says. He leans forward on the couch, as if to emphasize his impatience. “I think it puts an urgency and a seriousness into our walk.” Jeremiah is particularly tough on Islam in his book. Islamic terrorism is among the signs he says are pointing toward the end times.
“One of the most baffling and unsettling puzzles about Islam is the constant contention on the part of some Muslim leaders that they are a peace-loving people,” he writes. “Yet even as they make the claim, Islamic terrorists continue to brutally murder any person or group with whom they find fault.”
Jeremiah does not believe Allah and God are the same. He also believes that Islam hates Jews and Christians.
“Experts say that 15 to 20 percent of Muslims are radical enough to strap a bomb on their bodies in order to kills Christians and Jews,” he writes. “If this number is accurate, it means about 300 million Muslims are willing to die in order to take you and me down.”
His solution: convert Muslims to Christianity.
Jeremiah says he is not trying to be incendiary; he's just being true to his convictions. “I'm not intolerant,” he insists. “I just believe totally what I believe, and if I have to go along in order to get along, water down what I believe, I'll never do that.”
But Khaleel Mohammed, associate professor of religious studies at San Diego State University and a voice for moderate Islam, says Jeremiah isn't helping matters.
“It's not constructive in any way for the Christian or the Muslim,” Mohammed says. “Everything he is saying is so divisive.”
Mohammed also thinks Jeremiah's portrait is one-sided; after all, thousands of Muslim civilians have died in the American-led invasion of Iraq.
“I'm not denying there are Christians and Muslims agitating against each other, but I don't think it's religious,” Mohammed says. Still, he adds, the future lies in interfaith cooperation, a move the “old guard” on both sides is resisting. “They are just fighting against the tide. ... Among Muslims, you'll find preachers who are as nonsensical as Jeremiah.”
Scholars who study end-times prophecies say Jeremiah's book, and others like it, should be handled with care.
“I would say the odds are enormous, if not overwhelming, that he, like every other Christian prophet over the last 2,000 years, will be wrong,” says Richard Landes, associate professor of history at Boston University and director of the Center for Millennial Studies.
Jews and Muslims also have their doomsday beliefs, Landes says, but apocalypticism has been particularly rampant in Christianity. It was, after all, Jesus himself who forewarned his followers in the New Testament to “keep watch” and “be ready” for his return.
Ever since, Christians have watched for signs of the Second Coming, scanning the Bible for clues and codes, says Jon Stone, a religious studies professor at Cal State Long Beach.
Stone acknowledges there is a built-in audience for books like Jeremiah's. “I think people like to be in on a secret, to know something other people don't know,” he explains. “This is, by far, the biggest secret in terms of religious things.”
Jeremiah is planning a series of sermons at Shadow Mountain this fall on living with confidence in a chaotic world. He plans to tell the congregation, among other things, that this is the time for the faithful to hang together, to focus on the church and the Bible.
Jeremiah says biblical prophecy isn't a popular pulpit topic. “A lot of buddies of mine say they don't ever preach on prophecy because they think it's irrelevant. ... Well, if they read the Bible, they will find out that if you study prophecy, it gives you incredible insight as to how you should live your life today.”
He resists efforts to be coaxed into being more specific about when all this is going to happen. It's not about that, he repeats. “It is about the awareness of what the events that are happening in the world today mean and how we can look at it through the third lens of the Bible and make more sense of it than we would otherwise.”
I’ll just reply to this last paragraph. You can see some more comments of mine in Post #77.
You said — “Now if all the ‘good’ believers are going to get zapped out of here why would Paul tell what is require to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand???????”
Of course the Bible is written for all believers, in all ages, in all locations, and many of those believers are dead, while many others haven’t been born yet. The Bible is for all.
As a result, there are going to be believers who will be here and alive “at that time” that the Apostle Paul talks about — even with all the believers (and the dead in Christ) being “taken up” at the time Paul speaks of in Thessalonians.
Those believers who will be here, and who can heed Pauls words (at that time) will be the ones who will accept Christ during that time of the Great Tribulation. These are words for them, the ones who are here.
They did not accept Christ at the time of the “big taking up” , but did so later.
Remember, in Revelation we see that there is an angel sent out to give the everlasting Gospel to the entire world, to all peoples, nations, tribes and languages. This will result in many people being saved at that time, not to say anything about the 144,000 from the 12 tribes (listed in Revelation, tribe by tribe), who will be also proclaiming the Word of God at that time, around the world.
…
Here is a short article outlining three of them, which have been found...
There are none. I realized Tommy Ice and the Pre-Trib Research Center have been running around for decades misquoting ancient text to support his beliefs, but that fact is that none of these pre-Darby authors are teaching a pre-trib rapture. His theories have been debunked in several places.
The Catholic Church, which held sway for many centuries over teachings from the Bible (overwhelmingly) did not teach this and would actually persecute and/or kill anyone who taught different from their own doctrines (if they wouldn’t repent). So, it’s definitely not in the mainstream of Catholic teaching and they did hold a *major* position over the centuries, until just recently.
There were many generations of Protestants before and after Darby who had no notion of a secret pre-trib rapture of the Church. There were centuries of early Church fathers, unfettered by the medieval Roman Catholic hierarchy, that had no notion of a pre-trib rapture.
What pre-tribbers call the rapture is really just the Second Coming from the Christians’ vantage point.
Regarding the rapture, the Bible passages you quote also have an interpretation other than the one you propose. Succinctly, those that are dead at the time of Christ's second coming will join those who are still alive and share in the blessing of eternal life.
I do thank you for the applicable Bible versus. I am teaching a Bible class on the End Times and some of my students wanted to know how the rapture has been justified.
Orshalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach AdonaiNAU Exodus 19:16 So it came about on the third day,
when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a
thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all
the people who were in the camp trembled.
Interesting theory, but there is nothing at all in the Bible to indicate the activity of these one hundred and forty four thousand. Any suggestion as to what (if anything) these folks are doing is pure fiction.
Which again goes to show how much of the pre-trib futurist scenario is built on a fictional rendering of the Biblical texts.
Exactly.
Recall from Hebrews that Moses constructed the religious worship of Israel from all he had seen on the mountain (Heb. 8:4,5). He was given a glimpse into heaven. From that glimpse he constructed a worship pattern that was intended to point the people of the older covenant to the Messiah who was to come.
The holy days and all their rituals and instruments were merely types of the person and work of Jesus Christ. In them they would see their need for redemption and the Messiah who would accomplish that redemption for His people. When the Messiah would come they would be able to recognize Him because of all that had witnessed in the old covenant typology.
Of course once He had appeared and accomplished our salvation, a return to old covenant rituals was no longer necessary or desirable. That is why we are told that the old covenant was decaying and about to fade away even in the 1st century (Heb. 8:13). The last vestiges of that (temporary) old covenant were brought to an end when the temple in earthly Jerusalem was destroyed once for all time in AD70. We now worship in the new Jerusalem in Spirit and truth, not being confined to any geographic location or bound by temporary, cultic rituals.
TaraP asked — “How do you know some Souls might reside in the heavens (New) while new bodies in Christ will reside on the New earth?”
Well, just an overview of some things. We could go really long on this one, because it involves things from different places in the Bible. But, this is an overview of it.
First of all, prior to the time of Christ, the “dead” were in Sheol (the grave), kept in two places (in that location), one for the saved dead and one for the unsaved dead.
At the time of Christ’s death and resurrection, Christ took the souls of the saved dead and brought them with him back to Heaven, where He is now. You’ll also note that Christ told one of the thieves (being crucified at the same time) that he would be with Him (i.e., with Christ) that day (in Paradise), on the basis of the thief’s acceptance of Christ as the Messiah of Israel, the one who was to come and was the salvation of the world.
Now, we have the Apostle Paul who tells us that to be absent from the body (talking to Christians...) is to be present with the Lord. So we know that.
Additionally, we know that at the time of the Rapture, that the “dead in Christ” will be raised up just before the living (”in Christ”, too) are “translated” (in the twinkling of an eye) and are “taken up” to be with Christ forevermore.
And then, we see that all the saints and the host of angels come back with Christ (His “second coming” in glory and power and as the King of King and Lord of Lords) to rule and reign over the world and all the nations of the world, at the time of the Millennium.
During the time of the Tribulation, we see that there are souls (under the throne, if I remember correctly) who are still waiting to be given their redeemed bodies, as they were killed during the Great Tribulation. They will be given their redeemed bodies at the coming of the Lord as King of King and Lord of Lords, to rule and reign at the beginning of His Millennial Kingdom on this earth (and all of us, who have been given our redeemed bodies, at the time of the Rapture, plus the “dead in Christ”) will be returning with Him at that time.
So, at various times, during the “timeline” of history (and of the Church) and during the Tribulation, we see the various souls of mankind in many different places (at those different times).
“In the end” (at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ on this earth) — all the souls (except for the unsaved dead) have been resurrected and are in their redeemed bodies and are with Christ, where He is (and He is ruling and reigning on the earth for that 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom). At that particular time, there are no more “saved” souls, still waiting to be redeemed (who are “dead” and without their redeemed bodies).
All that remains at that time are the “unsaved dead” awaiting their resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgement (as seen in Revelation 20).
I hope that gives a good overview and (perhaps) answers the question (don’t know for sure...).
++
It is another of the words that is not from the Bible, but men have decided explains part of the teachings in the Bible.
Not all men have decided that the rapture explains some of the teachings of the Bible. We will have to agree to disagree. God Bless you!
You said (in reference to the three documents which show the existence of ancient writings about the Rapture) — “There are none.”
Well, I would say it’s kind of hard to talk about the issue and those three documents that were referenced in the article (plus the English translation that was given for one) — when you say — “There are none.”
You’ve just indicated that even when presented with evidence, you deny it and refuse to acknowledge they even exist.... LOL... (even when it’s printed right here for your perusal).
On that basis, I would say there’s not too much else someone can say to a person who refuses to acknowledge the very documents that have been put in front of their face...
I think a more applicable question would be, "What does the Bible have to say about the rapture?"
Ahhhhhh
Nice to see that your perceptiveness and discernment are more or less up to speed regarding
the . . . .
seemingly
“Willfully Blind As A Bat School of Theology.”
I don’t think anyone has all the precise sequences 100% figured out.
Seems to me God deliberately fuzzied it.
However, that we are in THAT ERA seems abundantly clear to anyone with 1/100th
of eyes to see and ears to hear.
That is the only thing for certain.
Not all men have decided that the rapture explains some of the teachings of the Bible. We will have to agree to disagree. God Bless you!
++
I think we agree, I could have saie it better.
topcat54 said — “Interesting theory, but there is nothing at all in the Bible to indicate the activity of these one hundred and forty four thousand. Any suggestion as to what (if anything) these folks are doing is pure fiction.”
They are called servants of God and, “as such” — they *will definitely* be following the commands of Jesus Christ — especially the one that He gave as the primary mission for all who believe and trust in Him — which is to proclaim the Gospel to the whole world and to every person, tribe, nation and peoples.
We can see that this time of the Tribulation, besides being a time of Judgement is also a time of proclaiming the Gospel, too, as the angel is sent out to proclaim it all over the world. You can call that a “general announcement” (if you will), while the “feet on the ground” can be the 144,000 (and have no doubt that they *will* be following Christ’s *primary command* to ones who believe and trust in Him as Savior).
If you don’t know that this is the primary command for those who trust and believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior, then you’ve got your priorities wrong. But, I’ll guarantee you that these 144,000 won’t have their priorities wrong — not in “that day”, before the final judgements are given out.
And remember, God doesn’t want any to perish (without Christ) and will give all the opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior. And also remember, that during this time that about 2/3 of the world’s population is “perishing”. God doesn’t desire that this be without Christ as their Savior.
True enough.
Another mom at church had a migraine day before yesterday, took her medicine and died in her sleep. Her kids came home from school and found the body.
If something so unexpected happened to one of us, are we ready? Any day could be the last day ...
Well, yeah...
Actually, it’s taken me a very long time to get to this particular point in that understanding as I outlined it (and it was brief and quick covering a lot of material).
So..., is it possible that I could have further understanding (in the coming and remaining time before Christ comes) that would clear it up even further? Yes..., I would say so.
Thanks for your comments..., I appreciate them.
They call their brothers "RACA" for not agreeing with their anti-semitism. There are some on this thread that pridefully think that they do !
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Hmmmm
Guess I’ve been scanning too quickly as I do my administrivia for my classes.
At least you know I’m a great champion of Israel and the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
[I hope!?]
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