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To: Dutchboy88
Okay, I’ve had a few days to mull your answer over. The great majority of what you have written here is based upon RCC tradition. That makes it nearly impossible to dispute, not because it is therefore automatically true, but because once your organization commits it to tradition, that puts it on par with the Scriptures and, in your world, irrefutable.

I am sympathetic to that point. It makes it very difficult to have a discussion amongst Catholics and Protestants. The way I see it, it is analogous to interpreting the Constitution. Yes, you can get a long way looking solely at the text, but the whole of the document comes to light when you look at the English Law it is based upon, the early documents of the Founders, etc. But I digress, since that is not the basis of this discussion.

So, I purpose the following: While I am not persuaded that purgatory exists, nor that “speaking” to the dead is appropriate, I will continue to listen to the discussion. And I am still trying to connect how Mary could possibly “unite” Christians (which sounds like an active verb upon a passive object) without acting into history like God. This seems very troubling, if not nearly blasphemous.

That is fair. Listening with an open mind is all I could ask for. It is something sorely missing on this forum, on both sides. Speaking to the "dead" - did you have any thoughts on my point re: Angels? Before I continue on that idea, I'm curious as to your thoughts. Regarding Mary (for if it is appropriate to speak to her, it is appropriate to speak to the others currently present in Glory with Christ), she cannot act into history. I understand your concern, and if she was or if that is what we sought, it would be indeed blasphemous. However, our faith holds that Mary is the most righteous creation of God - what other human has been so blessed as to physically carry Him into the world? Meditating on that reality blows my mind. Carrying God!

Now, if the prayers of the righteous are especially powerful, who is more righteous than her? Christ, certainly, but He is God. No one gets to the Father except through Christ. But how do we (and others) get to Christ? Asking Mary to ask God to bring all Christians together is no different than you or me asking Him - it is still his action. But, I believe Mary carries a lot more weight with Him than I do.

And as for the “Saint” explanation, I am still puzzled. Peter calls all of the folks he wrote to (the believing diaspora) “saints”. The Scripture notes that we are all saints, if we belong to Christ. This separate class, again seeming to arise only in RCC tradition, appears to be absent in Scriptures.

We Catholics don't do a good job explaining the difference between what we mean by "saint" and "Saint." The latter is the former, but the former isn't the latter. Anyone who belongs to Christ is a "saint." We agree with that. We don't believe you truly belong to Christ until your work here is done - free will allows us to turn against him. Thus, when we discuss saints, we mean those with God in Heaven. "Saints" are just those we know are there - it is a conformation of the fact that God has saved them. If you want to discuss that process, I am happy to - trust me, the bar is very high.

30 posted on 10/08/2008 9:15:03 AM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: thefrankbaum

Your response is well-reasoned and presented. Give me a few days to ponder these various matters and I’ll be back...again. Grace be with you.


32 posted on 10/08/2008 11:18:48 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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