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To: HarleyD
I did not say that ONLY believers glorify God.

I stand corrected. When I first read that, that is what I thought you were saying.

The Catechism states that "Why did God make us? God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us...". I'm saying this is nonsense. God showed forth His goodness BEFORE we were ever around. Weren't the angels aware of the goodness of God?

WE TOO do not say that "only humans glorify God" or "God did not show His glory until He created man"... Of course God showed His glory before He created man. I suppose we both have problems with "only"!

Do you think that those in hell will recognize and acknowledge the goodness of God?

Sure they will - and hate Him for it. They will prefer to be apart from God, which is why they are there. That doesn't mean they will bow and worship God - which the Scriptures note God will not accept, even if they did.

The more one understand our depravity the more they understand God's grace. Our depravity should be our only focus.

I chose(!) to understand God's grace as my primary focus. I am quite aware of my shortcomings, but I don't need to focus on them and build up a complex before I recognize the gift of God's grace. Christianity maintains a high view of mankind, being the pinnacle of material creation.

Didn't I quote scripture that every knee will bow? I take that to be quite literal. That doesn't mean God accepts them, simply that they will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord.

The verse in question does not say "every knee in hell will bend". It states locations of places where the knee will bend - in heaven, on earth and under the earth. This refers to the Church - those in heaven, on the earth, and "under the earth" refering to Purgatory. Those in hell will not "bow" to Christ. The wicked are wicked BECAUSE they WILL NOT recognize Jesus as Lord! The context is not speaking of every person on earth, but those in time who see Jesus as the Christ - even those who have died.

keep forgetting that Catholics no longer believe that we are tainted with original sin. Shame on me.

Individual Catholics or the Catholic Church? Who can say what the individual "Catholic" believes these days with Bidden and Pelosi running around? But I assure you that the Church continues to teach the TAINT of original sin - which has NEVER been the "total depravity" of the reformers.

You forget, God doesn't HAVE to "pull the rug" from out of anyone. We are quite capable of doing that ourselves.

Of course. It would be well to remember that YOU can do that and that one is not "saved for heaven" before they enter the Kingdom. We have free will. With that said, it appears that your view of free will and the sovereignty of God would, in the end, have GOD pulling the rug out from me, whether I want to or not - not me doing it to myself.

That's what predestination is all about.

As I said, I am not about to debate on such a wide array of subjects. Our ideas of predestination are not the same. Predestination is to the Church, the community, not to heaven. That's all I'll say on that. It is enough to state that Catholics are neither Calvinist or Arminian on such subjects.

Regards

31 posted on 09/24/2008 5:25:17 AM PDT by jo kus (You can't lose your faith? What about Luke 8:13...? God says you can...)
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To: jo kus

Well said, thank you.


32 posted on 10/05/2008 11:01:04 AM PDT by narses (Obama and Osama both have friends who bombed the Pentagon.)
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