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To: jo kus
Wrong, my friend. God is glorified by all of creation, not just believers.

You are arguing my point; man along with everything else in this universe was created for God's glory, not so that God could share His goodness with us as is stated in the catechism. We share in His goodness because of His grace and love-not because we were created for that purpose.

Now, pray tell. Why does God offer salvation to mankind IF not to share with us His goodness and eternal happiness in heaven - which is why we were created?

See, there you have changed. Let's approach this in another way. Do those who are cast into hell reflect the glory of God? Is God good to sentence people to an eternal death in a lake of fire to be tormented throughout eternity? I would hope you would answer yes because that is the situation of unbelievers and the very nature of God. God is good and just. Casting the rebellious into eternal torment is a good and just punishment.

This seems like such a preposterous claim simply because we cannot understand how far we have fallen in our depravity to a beautiful and perfect God. But someday, EVERY knee will bow and many of those same people who bow before the throne will justly suffer the fires of hell and it will reflect the goodness and justness of God.

So he can pull the rug out from under us when we realize how woefully short we fall from perfection???

The rug is already pulled out. Our sentence has been established. We are saved from our sentence once He reveals Himself to us and we come to Him. The Father gives us to the Son and the Son keeps us.

28 posted on 09/22/2008 11:16:39 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
You are arguing my point; man along with everything else in this universe was created for God's glory.

LOL! Hardly. That's not what the Psalm says. You are denying what you said AND adding your own words so that you can make your point. Please consider reading Psalm 19:1 again.

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows the work of his hands.

Where is the believer mentioned here??? You specifically said that only the believer glorifies God! Now, the Scriptures disagree - unless you think the stars and moon believe in God...

In addition, where does it say that the universe was created so that God could brag to His creation?

I certainly am not arguing your point...

Do those who are cast into hell reflect the glory of God?

I would say "no", it reflects His divine justice.

Is God good to sentence people to an eternal death in a lake of fire to be tormented throughout eternity?

God's judgments are just, which is considered "good". "Good" being just and righteous, a philosophical good. I am afraid I don't see where I have "changed", though. What does this have to do with God creating us to share in His eternal goodness?

This seems like such a preposterous claim simply because we cannot understand how far we have fallen in our depravity to a beautiful and perfect God.

Nor can we understand the wonderful gift God has given us fallen men. You are free to focus on either aspect, God's gift or your (or my) depravity.

But someday, EVERY knee will bow and many of those same people who bow before the throne will justly suffer the fires of hell and it will reflect the goodness and justness of God.

??? Where does Scriptures say those in hell will bow to God? The Scriptures are very clear that God DOES NOT ACCEPT such "offerings"... You are suggesting some sort of "play-acting"? Over and over, the OT tells us that God refuses the wicked and the evil and their "worship". God only accepts a heart of conversion. Please. Can we try to not re-invent Christianity with such musings? What sort of God do you have in mind that MUST have the evil "bow" to Him? Why would that be necessary at all? Is God so petty, in your eyes? Judgment will be provided, and the evil will be cast into the pit. The evil are not going to bow, nor will God accept such "bowing". That's stuff for human pride, not God!!!

The rug is already pulled out. Our sentence has been established. We are saved from our sentence once He reveals Himself to us and we come to Him. The Father gives us to the Son and the Son keeps us.

Cliches will get you nowhere. "The sentence has been established?" We DESERVE hell, but no sentence has been established - for God's sentences are unchangeable. Your idea of God is one who made us so He could "gloat" and "lord it over us" to prove how evil we were??? Do you get the idea that God made Adam to "pull the rug out from under him" too?

I am not even going to address your predestination errors here. They are off topic.

No, my friend, God made you to share in His life...

whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises, that by these ye might be made participants of the divine nature, having fled the corruption that is in the world through lust 2 Peter 1:4

That's love, my friend. A sharing of self. We are made to be divinized, if we only desire it.

Regards

29 posted on 09/22/2008 5:32:08 PM PDT by jo kus (You can't lose your faith? What about Luke 8:13...? God says you can...)
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