Posted on 09/07/2008 12:21:07 AM PDT by guitarplayer1953
Is prayer to saints / Mary Biblical?"
The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholic pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "...approach the throne of grace with confidence..."
1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God's throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
Asking the dead to “go over to Christ or God” and use some sort of special pull the dead must have, outside of anything in the Bible, is crazy.
That’s also why we have certain celebrations at around the time of the Pagans, as early “Christians” felt left out.
Yeah, that's it...grow up.
Our prayers are from alive people. In fact, all are “saints,” although the Catholic church has a sort of “super-Saint” to which they refer.
Prayers from us are heard, and we are to pray for one another. The Bible does not say we are to reference any one but God and Christ.
Official Church doctrine.
No crazier than anything you believe that IS in the Bible...
Who's "we?"
I don't accept your misunderstanding of the Bible verses you post.
It's up to each one of us to weigh the evidence of Scripture and see who has the sounder argument.
"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen." -- 1 Timothy 1:17
"To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." -- Jude 1:25"To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." -- Romans 16:27
Mary was a fallen creature like the rest of us, chosen by God to carry the infant Jesus to term. She is not our mother; she is not queen of heaven; she is not queen of the universe; she is not a co-redeemer; she is not a dispensatrix of all grace; she is not a mediator between God and men; she does not grant our prayers; she does not redeem us; she does not forgive our sins; she was not raised bodily into heaven; she was not born without sin; she was not immaculately conceived; and she most certainly does not lead us from evil.
The RCC has banished the Holy Spirit. It His place, the RCC has substituted Mary who, as some RCs told us in a recent thread, is on the cross with Christ, atoning for our sins.
(((choking from the mere writing of those words)))
Not content to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, Rome now rewrites the Trinity.
Read your Bible wherein you will find the truth, if God so wills.
God's plan for all creation is not contingent on any man or any "yes" from His creature.
What an astoundingly low opinion some have of the Triune God.
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:9-10"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
All God's pleasure; not Mary's.
AMEN! I hadn't read your posting of Isaiah 46 until now. Truly, as you remind us, God's will is irresistible because He is God, and God gets what He wants, one way or another.
Sometimes I think it must be difficult to comprehend the New Testament if we do not have a solid understanding of who God revealed Himself to be in the Old Testament. It is the same God. And the same salvation -- all by grace alone through faith alone in "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -- Colossians 1:16-17"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
you say:”Why wouldn’t Christians in Heaven have the ability”
again why would they ?? asking the question isn’t evidence that they do.
“Eye has not seen...”
the exact verse is:
1 Cor 2:9
but just as it is written, “THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”
nas
which means you don’t know. even to those there it may still be yet unrevealed, being reserved for the resurrection, or possibly even the new heavens & earth. thus why advocate something which is in so many words a fantasy ???
something so important; to whom to pray was discussed by Christ who taught us to pray like this:
Our Father...
no one else is addressed. nowhere in Scripture is it advocated to pray to anyone other than to GOD. when devotion, worship to anyone or anything else is mentioned it is considered idolatry & or spiritual adultery.
“I am a jealous GOD”
1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “ I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “ You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 “ You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
You said it; not I.
You are knowledgable in Scripture but, for the benefit of others, what is the angel's announcement?
Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.
Luke 1:38
Mary could have said "Sorry, I am not interested" .. end of story. Without her fiat, there would not have been a Jesus born at that time. And, no, God did not have a backup plan ... because He knew her response before it was uttered. In His infinite goodness though, he showed great respect for Mary by leaving the decision up to her.
Anyone with a Bible can see through these dark errors.
A baseless statement.
Beautifully spoken!
Where is it prohibited?
Where do you get the authority to make positive prohibitions out of Scriptural silence?
With that kind of illogic, you could just as easily say "Mary could have flown around Bethlehem in a Subaru , and just because she didn't doesn't mean she couldn't have."
he showed great respect for Mary by leaving the decision up to her."
It was not Mary's decision; it was God's decision. Just as it wasn't Paul's decision to obey God; it was God's decision.
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