Posted on 09/07/2008 12:21:07 AM PDT by guitarplayer1953
Is prayer to saints / Mary Biblical?"
The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholic pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "...approach the throne of grace with confidence..."
1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God's throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
“”I love the part where it points out that in the Psalms we address all those in heaven and ask them to praise God. Too bad they can’t hear us, huh?”
They can, but apparently the living are having a problem with their hearing.
It’s like addressing the deaf around here.
I have to leave the thread now. You know, that whole blasphemy against the HS thing we witness on RF really bothers me and unsettles my soul for hours!
Adios
"Some" theologian believes virtually anything. That gets us no closer to why one would choose to embraced speculation designed to validate a particular prejudice rather than simply relying on the primary source material.
I do not disagree Doodus Romanus may have just switched his Santa Claus for St. Nicholas when he converted; what I want to know is why one would propose such speculation other than as a cynical attempt to undermine the faith of others when neither Doodus, nor anyone else, documented such a switch?
Roman Catholics are instructed to "place all their hopes for salvation" in Mary?!?
Salvation was made possible by the death of Christ on the cross. Mary was a witness and bore the pain and grief of a mother as her son died for our sins. We ask for her intercession through prayer to help us through the Holy Spirit.
Roman Catholics believe Mary "delivers them from hell?!?"
See answer above with the caveat that prayers from the entire Communion of Saints, both in flesh and those who have gone before us and who are now with God, are meant to help those who died in a state of sin.
Romans Catholics "serve Mary?!?"
Because of our love of Christ, we serve His sheep, His flock. Mary does the same as she is one of us.
Roman Catholics believe Mary "delivers them from all temptation?!?"
Huh? Rebuffing temptation in favor of good and holy decisions is a personal choice. We can ask the Blessed Mother to pray for us that God in the Trinity will help us make the right decisions.
Roman Catholics believe men die "a holy death through Mary?!?"
Well, as the prayer says, "...pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of death." there might be something to that, but it's a matter of prayer and we still have to answer for what we've done or not done on earth.
“lol. That’s your evidence for praying to dead people...”
Pardon me, you don’t accept my biblical postings, but you expect your one-liners to prove your point.
They aren’t dead. NO ONE IS DEAD. The Communion of the Saints is alive and well in Christ. Christ is the God of the Living, not the dead, or did Christ lie according to you?
Your interpretations are tinged through and through with the Protestant Deformation.
Don’t expect me to correct that overnight.
for the poster of intercession examples.
the fact of the matter is not whether intercession is Biblical. its obvious it is. as a protestant, ive always believed that saved family members who have passed away are thinking about us & praying for us constantly. they no longer face the daily conflict of spiritual battle that we on earth do. knowing this, i believe they do pray for us. just as we pray for the living still here on earth. imho it is no longer necessary to pray for the departed. they are eternally secure.
& this is where we disagree. catholics don’t want to believe this truth. specifically that intercession doesn’t validate the false idea that i can pray to the departed, & if i do that they could actually hear what i say. if you believe they can hear you, then you have attributed to them several attributes of GOD. specifically, omnipresence, omniscience, & a bit of omnipotence. the truth is that no believer has these abilities, whether they are still physically alive on earth or if they have physically died & their souls are present with the LORD in paradise.
we know they cannot hear us, & i know i cannot hear them. i do know that i can & do hear the voice of GOD speaking to my heart & conscience on an almost daily basis. i do know that Scripture tells us that Christ dwells in the hearts of believers through faith in GOD. that believers are empowered by the Holy Spirit, (the ever dwelling living Presence of the Lord Jesus is the Spirit). knowing this. i. we, have all that we need pertaining to life & Godliness. the fount of living waters lives in me through faith. He is there listening, guiding, watching over all who are indwelt. so when i need to talk to Him, He is closer than my own heart.
when i feel the need to discern His will on a matter. i consult/read His Word & ask for help & guidance.
2 Cor 6:16
Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Eph 3:16
that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. 20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
2 Cor 13:4
4 For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you. 5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? 6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
Gal 2:20
20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Matt 11:27
27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
John 17:3
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Hebrews 10:19
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the *veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
*the temple veil which was rent in twain was/is a symbol of the Messiah’s death & suffering. you cannot enter the Holy of Holies without walking through & touching the veil.
Hebrews 2:14
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
(all quotations are from the NAS)
Is this what we are arguing against???
Conclusive proof would have Catholics believing "this truth," not ambiguous Scriptural citations used to support unambiguous Scriptural interpretations.
That was from a Catholic source.
That is irrelevant. Nancy Pelosi is a "Catholic source."
Neither have authority to speak for the Catholic Church. As I already said, one can find a nameless "theologian" to believe anything. The question is why do they believe something other than the explicit testimony of a primary source?
Mary was alive in your example.
The dead don’t intercede.
Mary is not dead. She is still alive.
Minor little thing - um, by Catholic Tradition (this has been taught for 19 and a half centuries), Mary didn't die. She was "assumed" into Heaven. When it was her time, she went straight there, body and soul.
I'd love to see the Scripture that validates such a conclusive determination of what is and is not possible for saints in heaven.
Indeed, why would one expect rational discussion with one who sees no incongruity with using self-contradictory terms like "a bit of omnipotence?"
So no source is valid until you say so?
“How do you know that God has not decided that this extra 90% will include the ability to hear requests for prayer from other Christians still on earth? “
what evidence do you have that they do ??
Is this what we are arguing against???
What do you think? The truth is obvious to anyone with eyes and ears given by God. The rest of the world flounders in its myopia.
"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." -- Proverbs 20:12
Does the word of God tell us to glorify men or the Triune God alone? Does the Holy Spirit lead men away from the Creator and towards the creature? Is Mary actually involved in our salvation? Is she in some way responsible for our salvation since, as that RC prayer I posted presumes, Mary "delivers us from evil," and as we've now been told, "without Mary, Christ would never have been born?"
"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:65
I suppose there are lies greater than to contradict Christ's teaching here, but certainly this deification of Mary is found at the top of that long list.
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