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To: Texas Songwriter
It brings me joy to read those words from you regarding your personal faith. My exhortation (for myself as well): seek the approval of God rather than that of men.

I would know this from you: Where did you get the idea that I said the elect have no business trying to bring the reprobate to God? The clear imperative is to share the Gospel with every living creature.

The knowledge of who is elect and who is not - what God ultimately does with that seeding and watering - is none of our business. Else, why the free offer of the Gospel?

Regarding Calvin's thought, he simply articulated the inclination of every unregenerate human being. All of us. No one is righteous, not one seeketh after God. That is our natural, tragic state of sin. What a tragedy indeed! What we need is a miracle.

See, this is the very difficult part for us, as mere men: reconciling the Scriptures. I made this point to another gentleman here this evening, about lifting particular ones above others. The difficult part - the same Jesus of Nazerth also spoke the clear, unadulterated words of John 6:44: "No one can come to me except the Father that sent me draw him." We could get into a dueling verses battle and go all night, and yet accomplish little. The same Bible that contains the one contains the other as well. My conclusions, imperfect as they are because I am a sinful man, are based on that. God is not schizophrenic, nor a God of confusion, nor unable to save - we pray for unsaved loved ones in the hope that God will hear our prayer and work mighty works by His spirit to bring the dead to life. Ultimately, it is up to - not the creature, but the Creator. Otherwise is to deny His sovereignty, and place the creature on the Creator's throne. "Thy will, not mine, be done."

As to God causing all misery: volition vs. permission. God's mercy is seen through saving out of the mass of fallen humanity those that He has chosen - to the praise of His glorious grace. He permitted man to fall into sin, by the instigation of Satan the deceiver. He did not volitionally, willfully cause the fall however, the very thought of which is blasphemy. Yet it is all in His plan, and all brings glory ultimately to God. The Spirit-wrought seed of saving faith spoken of in John 3:16 - the glory goes to God for His love through Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

It has not pleased God to give us a simple formula. He gave us the whole Bible - would that we all spend more time in God's Word! Unless we are willing to compromise its inerrency - in which case we call into question the whole of its authority and the basis for our blessed hope - we must take it as it is and, working in a prayerful and humble spirit, draw conclusions from there. That is the work of the theologian and should be the duty of every believer.

You are quite correct about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, to which I respond with a hearty yea and amen. He is the Way to eternal life. Remember that ALL of His teachings are there for us.

56 posted on 08/21/2008 8:38:07 PM PDT by Lexinom
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To: Lexinom
The fact that God offers the kind of help that an unregenerate unbeliever needs so that he can choose to believe in Christ for salvation is to be found the the very context that says "God Draws", No one come to Me unless the Father...draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44.

The Calvinists says that because God must draw many people cannot believe and be saved. In doing so, they give the unsaved an excuse for their unbelief and lostness. Jesus suggests that God draws so that all men can believe and be saved and so that no one will have an excuse for not believing. Both Calvinsts and non-Calvinist Evangelical recognize that God draws and that if He did not draw a man to Christ , no man would or could believe in Christ. The Calvinist, however, uses this word "draw" to exclude (in his thinking and theology) most of the lost from ever becoming saved. It is, however, the drawing work of God that makes it possible for all unabelievers to abecome believers. Exactly what he does to draw us we are not told in this passage. Perhaps John 16:8 hold the answer. Jesus says, "When He (the Holy Spirit) has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of rightousness adn of judgement."

Whatever the convicting work of the Holy Spirit is, it is work on the world. He does not (in this context) have the church in focus. That is, our Lord had the lost in mind, not the saved. John 1:7 says, "This man came for a witness to bear witness of the Light, that ALL through him might believe". John 3:15-18 is so frequently quoted that I will not restate it here. In John 12:32, we read, "..if I am lifted up from the earth I will DRAW all people to Myself."The New King James version uses the word "people" instead of "men" which many translators do use. So, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to Myself." Thus if the drawing referred to in John 6:44 (ie.by the Father) can be translated fored, coerced, or dragged, could we not say the same for the drawing in John 12:12-13 (by the Son) If being drawn to Christ leads necessarily and inevitably to saving faith in Christ, it would lead to universalism, which Calvinists rightly reject. John 6:44 does say that everyone that comes to Christ must be enabled to do so, and in fact is enabled to do so by being drawn. It does not tell us that everyone who is drawn to Christ comes to Christ. Even so, Calvin taught"To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, the Evangelist...says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this...no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected.

True, indeed, as to the kind of drawing, it is not violent, so as to compel men by external force; but still it is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. It is a false and profane assertion, theerefore, thatn non are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who has formed their hearts to obey Him."

BKeing enabled to come to Christ and actually coming to Christ, and necessarily coming (being compelled) are not the same. The ability to come to Christ is from God alone. The responsibility to come belief in Christ, is ours. The question is not, as Calvinists suggest, "can a lost and spiritually impotent man resist an all powerful God who has determined to save a person not matter what?" Instead, the question is "has God determined to save such a person no matter what?" The scriptures respond with a resounding, NO!

On another subject. You say, "Where did you get the idea that I said the elect have no buisness trying to bring the reprobate to God? As a Calvinist, why would you even try. It cannot be done according to Calvinist distinctives. God thunders out to you, "Thou shalt not lie!" Then you say he tells you to go forth and lie to the reprobate, telling them that they can have everlasting life if they come to Jesus, with you knowing that, according to Calvinism, that is not true. Why do you assert that God tempts the reprobate, when the scripture clearly says God does not tempt any to sin.

I could go on, but it is late. Have a good night.

57 posted on 08/21/2008 9:19:39 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter
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