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To: Frumanchu
The premise that many of you seem to be operating from is that all men are brought to the point where their will is momentarily free of the slavery to sin that they are born with so that they may make a decision for or against Jesus Christ.

That's because I believe in Scripture while the calvinists here seem to want to re-write it and interpret it according to their own whims. Scripture teaches that the grace that allows us to make salvific decisions has appeared to all men.

Some ignore it, and some don't.

While I do not deny God's sovereignty, power, and omniscience, I do believe that He has also voluntarily limited Himself with regards to our will. He has left the decision to be with Him for eternity, or to be without Him for eternity, up to us. That is why we evangelize.

He is omniscient. He already knows who will and who will not make that decision. However, the responsibility for that decision will be ours in every way. There is no predestination, but is is foreknowledge. He didn't create us in order to destroy us, but to allow us to make the ultimate decision. Some will succeed. Most will fail. He knows that, but He does not force our decision one way or the other.

105 posted on 08/26/2008 5:35:54 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce
That's because I believe in Scripture while the calvinists here seem to want to re-write it and interpret it according to their own whims. Scripture teaches that the grace that allows us to make salvific decisions has appeared to all men.

Can you present us with the specific Scripture(s) which teach that the grace required to nullify the effects of original sin is applied to every individual without exception?

I see many Scriptures that speak of the command to repent. I see many Scriptures that present the clear conditions one is required to meet for salvation. But I do not see any Scriptures that state what you are claiming.

While I do not deny God's sovereignty, power, and omniscience, I do believe that He has also voluntarily limited Himself with regards to our will.

In what way, and more importantly to what extent? To the extent that He will not clearly show Himself to some men in a manner that was perfectly fit for others such as Paul (Acts 9:3-5)? To the extent that He will ostensibly allow men to prevent those who otherwise would believe from doing so, effectively blockading the gates to the Kingdom (Matt 23:13)?

He has left the decision to be with Him for eternity, or to be without Him for eternity, up to us. That is why we evangelize.

Why then does He willfully withhold from some the means He knows would lead to their repentance (Luke 8:10,10:13,10:21)?

He is omniscient. He already knows who will and who will not make that decision. However, the responsibility for that decision will be ours in every way. There is no predestination, but is is foreknowledge.

The error here is in assuming that man does not bear responsibility for his sinfulness. That is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from the insistence that all man be provided the opportunity of salvation. God's justice does not demand second chances. Unless you can proclaim that all sin prior to the application of God's prevenient grace to a person is not the responsibility of the person and is not grounds for God's wrath and condemnation, you simply cannot maintain that the condemnation of the reprobate, passed over with respect to God's grace, is in any way in conflict with His justice.

He didn't create us in order to destroy us, but to allow us to make the ultimate decision. Some will succeed. Most will fail. He knows that, but He does not force our decision one way or the other.

Again, I find nowhere in Scripture the principle that the reason He created us was to "allow us to make the ultimate decision." Moreover, why create those whom He already knows would reject Him unless their condemnation was also according to His good will and purpose?

One more point. I fail to see how God's justice is incompatible with His graciously and efficaciously bringing about a choice in some, yet is compatible forcing all to make a choice when they from the womb are at enmity with Him and reject Him. Unless again their sinfulness to that point isn't really just grounds in and of itself for their condemnation. Is this your position?

I know I've hit you with numerous questions all at once, but these are the questions your position begs right from the start. :)

106 posted on 08/26/2008 7:41:42 AM PDT by Frumanchu (God's justice does not demand second chances)
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