Posted on 08/11/2008 4:58:31 PM PDT by annalex
I didn't write a blog to someone. I responded as anyone does on this site.It's not about me propagandizing this writer. This is a public site and now his comments deserve the criticisms their getting.
It isn’t nonsensical. Follow your own advise. If you have a problem with what Claveau did then follow your own advise and address him face to face. Be consistent.
It is nonsensical and it's irrelevant. I'm not trying to convert the writer to my religious view. I'm not trying to "evangelize" him to be sure. That's the context of personal discussion. I'm criticizing his methodology. In that context he deserves the same methodology he gave. What's good for the goose is truly good for the gander.
Look at your anger there: wasted type, misguided apologetic, screed, reducible to a propaganda piece of the worst kind? It’s a letter. Everything in it is true. Wring your hands all you like. None of that will change.
No anger just observations. Gee you are sensitive aren't you?
You wrote:
“Okay, I take great exception to that comment about “lone rangers making it up as they go”. What are you? A Pharisee?”
No. I am an orthodox Christian. You are making it up as you go along.
“Why do pompous people like you, have to take something simple like salvation and complicate it?”
I am neither pompous nor have I complicated anything.
“To make yourself feel important?”
Since I didn’t do what you claim, I couldn’t have done it for any reason you claim.
“God meant for the plan of salvation to be simple, so everyone can understand and accept the offer of eternal life. You are making it sound like one has to jump hurdles and shoot out of a cannon to share in God’s inheritance.”
I am doing no such thing. You are merely claiming I am.
“SHAME ON YOU!!!!! You could be the reason someone might feel too intimidated to step forward and accept Christ as their Savior, and if that were the case, it would royally suck to be you when you stand before Almighty God, you would not get a chance to plead your case.”
No, that will not happen. 1) I have helped convert a number of people. 2) I always point people toward Christ and His Church and never anywhere or anything else. Therefore, no person who ever reads what I say, or listens to me in person would ever choose anything other than Christ unless they were already well disposed to doing so and intent upon doing so.
“Lighten up for pity sake.”
We are discussing serious matters. I see no reason to not approach these serious matters in a serious way. Do you make light or salvation? I do not.
“Would you please show me in the Bible where it says Jesus established the Catholic church and her ministers?”
Christ said He would establish a Church and His apostles would lead it: Matthew 16. Jesus sent the Church out in the Great Commission. (Matthew 28:19-20)
“What is Christ’s doctrine?”
On what?
Annalex, the one true church is the entire Body of Christ. Period.
No, Vlad, she is called the Body of Christ. The church that Jesus founded was His Body of Believers and it has no denomination. It is US, all of us who believe on Him as Saviour and Lord.
Christ died for the sins of mankind, not to establish any denomination. He died for you and for me, so we could be reconciled to God in this lifetime and spend eternity with Him.
You wrote:
“So first, you do mention sincerity.”
No, I mentioned “sincere”. This is what you accused me of saying: “of stating sincerity only is necessary”.
I never said EVER, ANYWHERE that ONLY sincerity was necessary. I said:
“Sincere dialogue is from a sincere mind and heart and exists irrespective of medium used to communicate.”
That is an entirely different issue. You accused me of saying only sincerity mattered when I actually said sincerity can exist no matter what the medium used to communicate. Your accusation is about ONLY SINCERITY. What I actually said is about SINCERITY EXISTING. Those are not the same thing.
Again, actually deal with my words rather than making stuff up and falsely claiming I said something I never said.
I read over the rest of your reply and it’s filled with the usual distortions and outright fantasies.
1) Evangelization and its meaning is not going to be dictated by you. Deal with it.
2) “personal manners” nor “private discussion” are not threatened by this open letter. You apparently are.
3) Claveau bracketed “born again” as is proper. You don’t like that. It doesn’t matter.
4) The truth - in case you didn’t know - is always divisive.
Remember what Christ said about Himself?
5) You say, “I see no invitation here. I see rhetoric, confrontation and patronizing attitudes.”
Do you see this? “I invite you return to your Catholic roots and invite all “Bible Christians” to explore the truth of Catholicism.”
Now, you can claim, along with your hand wringing, that this is just platitudes, but then again, Claveau does this all his life. Doesn’t sound like a platitude. It is something he lives.
6) Prove Claveau can get personally in touch with Baldwin. Prove it. Don’t just claim it’s so. Prove it.
7) Again, your former faith is key.
8) And the personal attacks continue: “You and the writer’s attitude make me cheer for Baldwin now because with this debased method of discussion and condescension he should do his best to avoid the likes of your kind if it is representative of Catholic “evangelizers.” Muslims would be proud to have this kind of religious shakedown.”
Lent, when you get the courage to actually do what you insist Claveau should have done, you let me know. Also, be sure and tell me he responded. Otherwise, with your attitude what is the point of this? You are so filled with anger over your fallen away Catholic faith, so seething with rage and so ill equipped to carry on a simple conversation about a simple open letter, that this is pointless.
The letter stands. Hate it all you like. It stands. Baldwin may respond. He might not. But others, men of goodwill, will. They will become what you once were and what you have abandoned. Rage in the darkness all you like, Lent. Claveau will probably sleep just fine tonight. I know I will. You will be wringing your hands. I pity you. I will pray for you. I hope you will pray for me too.
You wrote:
“No, Vlad, she is called the Body of Christ. The church that Jesus founded was His Body of Believers and it has no denomination. It is US, all of us who believe on Him as Saviour and Lord.”
No. 1) The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Protestants have denominations. 2) The body of all believers was the Catholic Church in the first century. Since then sects have started and they too believe in Christ. They are not part of the Church.
You wrote:
“Christ died for the sins of mankind, not to establish any denomination.”
Christ did not establish a denomination. The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Protestants have denominations. Christ did indeed die in part to empower the Church. That’s why John 20:19-23 is AFTER the resurrection and not before the death of Christ.
“He died for you and for me, so we could be reconciled to God in this lifetime and spend eternity with Him.”
Yes, and that ministry of reconciliation is the chief ministry of the Church:
CCC #1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the “ministry of reconciliation.”[42] The apostle is sent out “on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading: “Be reconciled to God.”[43]
As I, and many orthodox Christians, have said for centuries: the Church came from Christ’s side on the Cross.
If that’s what’s necessary, I’m fine. As a non-Catholic, I believe all of that and have done that which is listed, partaking in what Catholics call “sacraments”. While I was baptized as an infant, I knew nothing of what I committed to, so I was baptized (immersed) as an adult when I knew of what I professed.
Communion, also, is necessary, as are the other Scriptural requirements and character, conversatin and conduct attributes you’ve listed.
But as a non-Catholic, I no longer worship or pray to Mary or to the saints. Matthew 6 (which contains the “Our Father” and John 14 - 17 give several examples of Jesus telling us to ask of the Father in the Name of Jesus. I know of no instance in Scripture where we are to pray to Mary. And I do NOT adhere to the “as long as you believe in something” that Alex Murray referred me to on this thread. Jesus is the ONLY WAY.
But back to Baldwin. He is no deep theologian; he’s just trying to get people “in the door”. The next phase is “discipleship”, and any good church will take new believers and teach them the ways of God (via study of Scripture) so they can know the riches of Christ. Baldwin does not claim to do that; he’s just trying to get people to accept the message of salvation through belief in Jesus Christ.
Reading the mind of another poster and attributing motives to him are forms of "making it personal."
I never said EVER, ANYWHERE that ONLY sincerity was necessary. I said:
“Sincere dialogue is from a sincere mind and heart and exists irrespective of medium used to communicate.”
Sincerity as you decribed in the statement I quoted inevitability led to the reductio. I know you're now trying to argue out of that conundrum but too late.
That is an entirely different issue. You accused me of saying only sincerity mattered when I actually said sincerity can exist no matter what the medium used to communicate. Your accusation is about ONLY SINCERITY. What I actually said is about SINCERITY EXISTING. Those are not the same thing.
You missed the point (again). The reductio led to only sincerity mattered as you articulated it. That's your conumdrum. You stated and articulated it in the context of it existing "irrespective of medium used to communicate.". Well of course that is ridiculous as I demonstrated. You stated it. I didn't put any words in your mouth. You just didn't want medium to condition the sincerity. You wanted the sincerity to condition the medium. Maybe you should articulate you arguments better the next time.
Again, actually deal with my words rather than making stuff up and falsely claiming I said something I never said.
I did and you didn't like the results.
1) Evangelization and its meaning is not going to be dictated by you. Deal with it.
Neither by you or the writer thankfully.
2) “personal manners” nor “private discussion” are not threatened by this open letter. You apparently are.
They are threatened by pompous and patronizing screeds like this letter.
3) Claveau bracketed “born again” as is proper. You don’t like that. It doesn’t matter.
It would matter to Baldwin and to most evangelical Christians as it shows the writer is being a pompous #ss and patronizing.
4) The truth - in case you didn’t know - is always divisive. Remember what Christ said about Himself?
Truth may be divisive. It is not always devisive.
5) You say, “I see no invitation here. I see rhetoric, confrontation and patronizing attitudes.”
Do you see this? “I invite you return to your Catholic roots and invite all “Bible Christians” to explore the truth of Catholicism.”
The invitation is kindly declined.
6) Prove Claveau can get personally in touch with Baldwin. Prove it. Don’t just claim it’s so. Prove it.
How's this for a hand holding exercise: Post a simple note on the blog inviting Baldwin to discuss his faith with the blogger. Is that too hard? Too late now though the damage is done.
7) Again, your former faith is key.
It certainly is which helps me to more easily discern between divisiveness, schismatic discussion and genuine desire to converse about Christ. I see none of that in that writer's methodology and writing.
8) And the personal attacks continue: “You and the writer’s attitude make me cheer for Baldwin now because with this debased method of discussion and condescension he should do his best to avoid the likes of your kind if it is representative of Catholic “evangelizers.” Muslims would be proud to have this kind of religious shakedown.”
Well the truth hurts.
Lent, when you get the courage to actually do what you insist Claveau should have done, you let me know. Also, be sure and tell me he responded. Otherwise, with your attitude what is the point of this? You are so filled with anger over your fallen away Catholic faith, so seething with rage and so ill equipped to carry on a simple conversation about a simple open letter, that this is pointless.
I'm not filled with anger. Maybe disgust would be better representation of my position. Devisive and schismatic calling-out don't appeal to me. Furthermore the writer deserves no personal touch at this stage. Merely an FR response by the same medium and method he employed.
I pity you. I will pray for you. I hope you will pray for me too.
Don't pity me. Pity the poor attempt at "evangelization" undertaken by this writer. But I know you wont. Indeed you're proud of it. In any event we shall pray for one another as we are all enjoined to do. But I will not sit idly by and let doctrinal puffery count for constructive dialogue.
VERY WELL PUT.
I found this fellow . . . CURRY BLAKE . . . in addition to sounding like a long list of my relatives . . .
is fiercely against RELIGION and wholesale for Biblical RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD
and . . . as Vineyard founder . . . can’t think of his name . . . graduated from this life from falling in the shower . . . anyway—DOING THE BIBLICAL STUFF—APPLYING IT SIMPLY, STRAIGHTFORWARDLY, MATTER OF FACTLY.
NO RELIGION.
I need to concoct a gif NO RELIGION.
Here’s the link to his (Curry Blake’s) MP3 files.
Curry Blake (John G. Lake disciple)
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Healing/JGL/JGL_Ministries.htm
I love it when folks teach plain Bible and RELATIONSHIP
vs
RELIGION—INSTITUTIONALIZED RELIGION tends to be dreadfully deadly.
And the older it is, the more deadly it tends to be.
Something had to happen somewhere.
= = =
Waking up is an apt description.
BRACE YOURSELF
This I agree with:
Anyone who ends up in heaven ends up there because of Christ. Deciding who gets there is - thankfully - well above my pay grade. Will children who never knew Christ all be sent to hell? Will all human beings, hundred of billions of them, who never knew Christ, but many millions who sought out God sincerely, be sent to hell? If even one of those kids, or one of those others who never knew Christ is saved, it will be because of Christ. I leave all of that up to Him for He is the Savior.
Well put.
Thx.
Baptism does not wash away our sins, belief in Christ does. Quote the scripture that says baptism washes away sin, please. Baptism is symbolic of Christ dying and raising from the dead. Gettin baptized is a public observance of our conversion.
YOu said it yourself. Different churches battle over what the Bible says, so, in a nutshell, religion is divisive.
Why would you need to minister to other believers? Why not take it to the streets and minister there?
As far as believing the Bible being inspired by God, I take that on faith.
I truly believe that the Catholic church is not where God wants me to be.
FYI it is the Holy Spirit living within us that convicts us when we do something wrong. Hence the verse about grieving the Holy Spirit.
Let’s face it the only thing you’ve got to back up your argument is church doctrine. No scripture.
Hello!! Some of Christ’s disciples were Jews, not Catholics.
What makes you think I make up christianity as I go? Listen to yourself. Do you know haughtiness is one of the seven deadly sins? Just ask Lucifer.
They condemn pedophilia? Right. What do they do when sexual abuse happens, they cart him off to another church to do some more damage there. This mentality is unacceptable. They should strip him of his title, and file criminal charges against him. Look at how much it cost the church, monetarily speaking, all the lawsuits, and it all could have been avoided. You don’t send an alcoholic to tend bar anymore than commonsense tells you to put a pedophile with children.
The church is responsible for the Priests actions.
Again with the dig about my christianity. I’m willing to bet my husband’s pay that you don’t win too many to Christ.
So it’s okay for me to read the Bible? Goody, goody. I know, it’s a last resort (smothered in sarcasm)reading that pesky Bible, and me, a commoner at that. Well, I think that if the Caltholic church can skew the scriptures to their way of thinking and try and justify their way of believing, so can I. How dare you question my faith. Be careful, God has a thing about a prideful person, He might just take you down a peg or two or three.
I just had an epiphany. I now know why you think I need the Catholic church, more money to pay for all those lawsuits you’ve got going from all those pedophiles. See what it’s like to have someone bring your integrity into question.
Only applying what would be comfortable for me, is that right? Then I’m doing something wrong because my life is less than comfortable, but then I guess you know better than I, since you are all knowing.
John Wimber was the founder of the Vineyard Fellowship association of churches.
Very impressive comments. Well done and encouragement to you.
Lent,
When you decide to follow your own advice and write to Claveau and actually receive a reply let me know.
It’s time for you to be consistent and actually do what you insisted Claveau should have done. Will you follow through on your own advice?
I am making up christianity as I go? Did I not say that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life? Is that something I made up?
I do not make light of salvation. Which is why I question being baptized as a requisite to being saved.
Now the original messengers of the gospel were almost all Jewish, so they could hardly be Catholic. Now can they?
Believe what you want and I’ll believe what I want.
A little note about the “inspired word of God”.
II Tim 3:16 “All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching”.
II Pet 1:20, 21 “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit”.
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