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To: kosta50; GCC Catholic; Alex Murphy; maryz; ModelBreaker
RE: Christ as sent first to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles...

Psalm 71 (72)--Messianic Psalm

[1] Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son. [2] He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. [3] The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. [4] He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor. [5] They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations. [6] He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth. [7] In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth. [8] He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. [9] They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. [10] The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. [11] Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him. [12] For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper. [13] He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy. [14] He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight. [15] And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised. [16] There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth. [17] His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed. [18] Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things. [19] And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen. [20] The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Those predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ are called into existence and justified through faith then glorified: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30.

God is the God of Israel, but also of the Gentiles (I'm not referring to what the Gentiles believed, but about God himself), and all--Jews and Gentiles alike, are justified by faith in Christ Jesus and not by Jewish observance of the law: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." Romans 3:27ff

59 posted on 08/07/2008 4:40:00 PM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be the companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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To: koinonia
RE: Christ as sent first to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles

Christ tells us  he was sent only (or except if you want to be technical) for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [Mat 15:24]

Christ specifically tells his personally chosen disciples to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and not to the Gentiles or even the Samaritans.

Paul tells us that God appointed him an apostle to the Gentiles contradicting Christ of the Gospels. In Galatians 2:9, Paul says the "pillars" of the Church agreed him and Barnabas to the Gentiles.

Acts (13:46) tell us that Paul and Barnabas went to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected the word of God

It was only because of the failure of the Jews to accept what they preached that they turned to the Gentiles. It wasn't because of grace or some miraculous appointment, but because the Jews rejected them.

So, Christ never hinted at going to the Gentiles of having been sent to the Gentiles; Paul claims he was ordained to do that first by God and then by the "pillars" of the Church; and Acts reveals that it was for a very logical and obvious reason which had nothing to do with any grace. It was an afterthought.

NB: Now, just so there is no confusion  here: this is my opinion. This is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church.


61 posted on 08/07/2008 10:25:25 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
Psalm 71 (72)Messianic Psalm

It takes a lot of imagination to impute that this has anything to do with Christ. This is a Psalm of Solomon and as far as I know Solomon was not asking for a savior. He is obviously talking about himself and his offspring (re: Sheba).

Rather he lived a very unrighteous life (I guess you could say "like father like son!").

The Orthodox Church commemorates him as a "saint!" and calls him Righteous [sic] Prophet and King. For the life of me I can't figure out why except to justify the inclusion of the three books of the OT that are credited to him (one of which is erotic!).

He is talking about an earthy king and the king's son, who will rule a large area (from sea to sea, which could mean nothing more than from the Mediterranean to the Red Sea!), and all the kings will bow to him (they had no concept of how large the earth is or what people lived there, so they spoke of the immediate area, Middle East, and called it the "earth").

Historical evidence seems to suggest that his kingdom was nowhere near what biblical traditionalists claim, and the authorship of the biblical books (including two Psalm) attributed to him are likewise in question. There is absolutely nothing messianic beyond any doubt in his Psalm as far as I am concerned.


62 posted on 08/07/2008 10:30:12 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
Those predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ are called into existence and justified through faith then glorified

I see two problems with this right off the bat:

(1) You will have to show me where this teaching of Paul's agrees with that of Jesus of the Gospels.

No faith is required according to the following: Psalm 62:2,  Proverbs 10:16, Jer 17:10, Eze 18:27, Mat 5:20, the Beatitudes  also in Mat 5,  Mat 12:37,16:27, 19:17, 25:41-46, Luke 10:26-28, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, 13, 2 Cor 5:10, 11:15, Philippians 2:12, James 2:14, 17, 21-25, 1 Pet 1:17, Rev 2:23, 20:12-13, and 22:14

Faith is required according to Mark 16:16, John 3:18,36, Act 16:30-31, Rom 1:1617, 3:20, 28, 4:2, 4;13, 5;1, 10:9, Gal 2:16, 3:11-12, Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5 or basically Paul !

The preponderance of biblical evidence is clearly set against Paul on this issue, whether the Church will admit it or not (I know the Church doesn't like to talk about this!) . It is a Pauline innovation, and it was done with a purpose to give dispensation from Levitican laws (which are from God if the Bible is from God) so that the pagans of Greece and Rome may find it easier to accept this new religion.

Thus, any teaching that either Christ (according to the Gospels) or the Bible in its totality supports Paul's teaching of sola fide justification is patently wrong.

Remember, Paul's mission was to save the Church from extinction as it was dying in Israel. He saved it. And for that the Church has to accept him as the greatest next to Peter. In order to achieve what he had to achieve he even admits

"Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved." [1 Cor 10:33]

In other words...whatever it takes...

(2) Predestination  touches upon the matter of free will or no free will. If everything is preordained then we can't decide anything; God decides for us. We can't be held accountable for any of actions then, including sins.

The Reformed and others like them get the idea that God's sovereignty includes God making all decisions in order to be in charge, but neglect to consider biblical evidence that God gave Adam vast freedom to choose, whether it be to sin or to name animals.

The OT considered God sovereign and supreme over all and , yet it also considered man to be free (and responsible) for his actions. Our destiny is our choice. We can choose or reject God. That is our decision.  The Bible reminds us: "Choose you this day whom ye will serve ." [Joshua 24:15]


63 posted on 08/07/2008 10:37:09 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
God is the God of Israel, but also of the Gentiles (I'm not referring to what the Gentiles believed, but about God himself), and all--Jews and Gentiles alike, are justified by faith in Christ Jesus...Rom 3:27ff

Again, we have here another one of Paul's sweeping generalizations, only to contradict himself with a contrasting statement in the same Epistle! (my emphasis)

"even so through one act of righteousness there resulted in justification of life to all men." (Rom 5:18)

In other words, the justification is brought to all mankind through Christ's act of righteousness (sacrifice on the Cross), and not through faith. We know that because all mankind doesn't believe in Him, yet his sacrifice justified life of all men.

Remember the wedding parable—all are invited but only those who take the proper steps will be selected to come in. The invitation is free; the meal isn't.


64 posted on 08/07/2008 10:42:49 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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