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To: kosta50
Good morning again...

You wrote: It's conforming to God out of love. The obedience is internal not external. We don't want to offend God! If we love God, we will not do that which would not please him the way you would never do something to hurt those you love. It's different from obeying the speed limit "because it's the law and everyone is subject to law."

Without clear external norms we end up with "LUV" not love; we end up with "nice people", not holy people. After all, the Episcopalians are all about "LUV" nowadays--although they spell it "love", it's not what Jesus had in mind; it just sounds the same :-) . They claim to love God and not to want to offend him. They are saying from the Bishops to the layman that Christians should stop trying to make homosexuals straight and telling them to obey "because it's the law and everyone is subject to the law".

I know that this is not what you are saying. But that's the danger I see in not explicitly acknowledging the 10 commandments, the natural law that all men are subject to.

Jesus established a new covenant (Luke 22:20; I Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 8:6) and did away with the 613 mizvot. In establishing the new covenant, he perfects the law and does away with the Jewish law and this perfecting of the law, this law of love of God and neighbor explicitly includes precepts which in many instances go beyond the mizvot, such as anger, looking lustfully at a woman, divorce and remarriage, swearing unnecessary oaths based on sacred things, seeking just revenge (Jesus says to turn the other cheek), hating ones enemies (Matthew 5)--things which the mizvot does not demand.

St. Paul, as noted earlier, several times lists explicit transgressions that will bar Christians from entering Heaven. He too says that love is the fulfillment of the law, but does not hesitate to list sins and reprimand the various Christian communities for their vices.

I agree with you 100% that the Gospel, the new covenant of Christ, is about "conforming to God out of love" and not because its "the law--buckle up or you'll get it buddy" :-). However, not to describe what, in practice, conforming to God means can result in LUVing God and people and animals and trees and, in the end, just being nice people. And nowhere does the Bible say, "Blessed are the nice". ;-)

153 posted on 08/15/2008 2:57:53 AM PDT by koinonia ("Thou art bought with the blood of God... Be the companion of Christ." -St. Ephraim)
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To: koinonia
Without clear external norms we end up with "LUV" not love; we end up with "nice people", not holy people

Who are we to say who is holy and who is not in the eyes of God? What makes you the mouthpiece of God and the judge in his stead?

155 posted on 08/15/2008 9:44:10 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
[They claim to love God and not to want to offend him

Every sect and cult says that.

[Episcopelians] are saying from the Bishops to the layman that Christians should stop trying to make homosexuals straight

What should we do with them? Burn them at stake? What is it any of your business what they do in private? Love means do no harm. We can pray for their conversion because you (and I) believe they are wrong in God'e eyes. That's an act of love.

156 posted on 08/15/2008 9:46:31 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
I know that this is not what you are saying. But that's the danger I see in not explicitly acknowledging the 10 commandments, the natural law that all men are subject to

So, then of the 613 commandments given by God in the Torah, you, arbitrarily choose only the first 10 as binding and reject the rest? Are you forgetitng that the Ten, as well as the remaining 603, are all part of the same Torah, which was supposedly given to Moses word-by-word by God?

What makes the first ten more important or more binding? You call it the "natural" law. What "natural law?" Besides, I don't see homosexuality mentioned in the Ten Commandments as an abomination. So, you must be clining on to some parts of the Law, selectively and arbitrarily, the way you see fit. By what authority do you do that?

157 posted on 08/15/2008 9:52:49 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
Jesus established a new covenant (Luke 22:20; I Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 8:6) and did away with the 613 mizvot

He did? Where? If anything he says (and you even quoted it earlier) that "until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." [Mat 5:18]

I Corinthians 11:25, Luke 22:20; I Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 8:6...New Covenant established

I hate to burst your "bubble." :) The word "new" is not found in ancient manuscripts associated with the Covent in the Gospels. It is added to Mark, and Matthew only in KJV.

"Naturally," the idea is embraced by Paul (and his companion Luke, and whoever the author of Hebrews is) for obvious reasons.

The "new covenant" comes from Jeremiah 31:31, and it is to be "with the house of Israel and the house of Judah"only with the two Israelite kingdoms, not the Gentiles!

This shows once again +Paul's way of "selling" his version of Judaism to te Gentiles.

158 posted on 08/15/2008 9:57:28 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: koinonia
this law of love of God and neighbor explicitly includes precepts which in many instances go beyond the mizvot

I suggest you look up the mitzvot. Based on your responses, I don't think you understand what they are.

St. Paul, as noted earlier, several times lists explicit transgressions that will bar Christians from entering Heaven

How is that possible if you are "saved" by "faith alone?"

159 posted on 08/15/2008 10:00:21 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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