Thanks for returning after the artillery barrage you got in response to your post.
I will not address the question of who flames whom more. That would involve research. Yuck! But I don't think we ever said that we don't cross the line. It was comparative. So if your research shows that we, or some of us, do cross the line, that's not relevant.
I will admit to crossing the line myself, but the first instance of my doing so was when a notorious anti-Catholic posted a falsehood about what we believe. I had not yet realized that, consciously or not, that is a standard procedure among our antagonists.
... insisting that I can't find ONE examples on FR on Catholics denying salvation of non-Catholic Christians, I thought I should search a bit and see.The question is whether Catholics deny salvation to non-Catholics, right? If it isn't, I'll be wasting my time.
[Soothing Dave, post 95] Everyone should then, to assure their salvation, be a formal member of this Church and profess what She professes. However, we make allowances for God to have mercy on those, who for reasons beyond their control, do not formally join the Catholic Church.So this not only does NOT deny salvation to non-Catholics but explicitly says that non-Catholics CAN be saved.
Those not formally part of the Catholic Church who are not culpable for this fact can be saved anyway.....
[#194 Soothing Dave]What of it? Those who don't accept our teaching cannot be justified. Does that mean that small children and the feeble can not be justified? No. There are always exceptions for culpability.Once again, an explicit statement that non-Catholics CAn be saved.
[#55, Notwithstanding]that for that reason salvation is only through the Catholic Church.This may seem like nit-picking but it's not. There is a very important difference between saying salvation is through the Catholic Church and salvation is thorough being a member of the Catholic Church in full communion.
Please foller along a minnit here .... We think there is ONE Church, Christ has only one body on earth. IF (NOT "if and only if") you are baptized with water and the invocation of the Trinity you are a member of that Church. You may be a member NOT in "full communion", but you are a member, like it or not!
Another way to say it would be "IF you are a human in heaven you have been grafted into the body of Christ and raised with it. That's the Catholic Church in heaven." It's very close, in some respects, to the "invisible church" concept. The difference is that we claim that NOT the entirety of church-ness but the "fullness" of church-ness is in the Catholic Church on earth, a "Test" for which is "all those denominations in communion with the Bishop of Rome."
Is that kind of a little clear in my attempt to express it? To us it's NOT saying You have first to be Papist and then you can be saved; it's saying the process and reality (Whitehead fans, shut up!) of being saved includes as part of the whole, big, splendid gift, being brought, before or after death, fully into the one Church.
It's not hard to see why a quick or sloppy reading would lead to the conclusion that we are denying salvation to non-Catholics. But can we be to blame for people who react before they determine what they are reacting to?
[#17 invisible hand] is just nastiness and not theology.
[#146 ndkos]What it does teach is that anyone who know the Catholic Church is the one Christ founded and dies apart from it will not be saved.Again, the "class" described is defined as those who "know the Catholic Church is the one Christ founded ...". There are lots of Christians who do not know that and who aren't Catholic. They are not members of this class. Salvation is not denied to them on account of their not being Catholic. This quote does not make your case.
[#96 ArrogantBustard] just says (mistakenly IMHO) that all Protestants are heretics. It does not say no heretic can be saved. Further IMHO plenty of Protestants commit errors (as do I) which do not have the necessary element of willful disobedience to qualify as heresy.
The collection of nasties is indeed shameful, and because we papists believe in reparation I will do a little penance for them as soon as I post this reply. But it does not touch the question of salvation being denied to non-Catholics.
IN all sincerity, I think not a single one of the posts you present shows that the Catholic Church denies salvation to those who are not members, where "members" means something along the lines of "being in full communion". I'm afraid you will just dismiss my reply as shucking and jiving. All I can say is that since I first read Augustine in 1966 and Aquinas and intoxicating Dante in 1968, I have little by little picked up a lot of the Catholic "style" of thought and expression. I would not have "entered full communion" in the Catholic Church if I thought it taught and held what you say it teaches and holds.
For more info I commend you to the relevant sections of the Catechism, Looking up Baptism might be a place to start. But read CAREFULLY. You will hear stuff like "Baptism is ordinarily necessary for salvation," and maybe you will miss the "ordinarily", and then accuse us of saying no one who is not Baptized can be saved. Yeah, the unbaptized can be extraordinarily saved. You and we have an extraordinary and extraordinarily gracious God.
I would think most every Protestant is quite aware of the Roman Catholic claim that Christ founded their church. By your explanation that eliminates most Protestants from salvation, or am I missing something? The exceptions you talk about are for babies or someone completely ignorant of the Catholic Church, not the vast majority of Protestants.
I was going to say that exact thing! (I wish I were so eloquent.)
Now, back to lurking!
Most excellent!
I am now officially a Mad Dawg groupie.....I’ll just follow you around and tell you how brilliant you are. Of course, it’s not as cool as it could be.....I have to lug my three kids around with me too. All of whom have their own ideas as to what they want to spend their free time doing.....rarely does it have anything to do with what I want.