Posted on 07/23/2008 2:47:21 PM PDT by Pyro7480
As in fruit of the grape?
The only thing that I know about that is to avoid reds with fish.
No problem.
I prefer to ping folks who have an interest in a topic.
far, far, far, FAR LESS
than I’m usually the brunt of.
Telling any person that they are either anathema or barred from God’s blessings because they don’t submit to a particluar earthly visible, physical religo-political “church” (by any name at all) is to use spiritual intimidation to keep souls in bondage - - - often for the tithes & offerings of those people — often just for power and status over those people.
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EXCEEDINGLY TRUE.
What is the difficulty in recognizing this and telling it like it is about it--in any group. Aren't Christians supposed to be KEENLY INTERESTED IN AND COMMITTED TO THE TRUTH WHEREVER IT'S FOUND ABOUT WHATEVER???
Why such an anemic or off the wall response to the topic?
Why do the serfs go along with such nonsense so lock, stock and barrel?
I’m sure you’ll be OK.
OF COURSE.
God works all things together for good for those who Love Him, who are called . . .
Yes, grape wine. But that was several days ago.
Telling any person that they are either anathema or barred from God’s blessings because they don’t submit to a particluar earthly visible, physical religo-political “church” (by any name at all) is to use spiritual intimidation to keep souls in bondage - - - often for the tithes & offerings of those people — often just for power and status over those people.[By the way, I think that's spelled "pertiklar."]
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO EXCEEDINGLY TRUE.I tried last night and gave up. I'll try again this AM, but I am in haste:What is the difficulty in recognizing this and telling it like it is about it--in any group.
The short answer is I don[' recognize it, though I think I understand the proposition, because I do not believe it to be true. Tautologous. Sorry.
I think that IN any group that does what JL says, there will often be people who want to control other people. But I don't think those people necessarily define the group.
In fact try this as a suggested, only suggested, idea:
Influenced more by secular political thought than by hope for the kingdom, a number of Christians have determined that the way to prevent abuse of power/authority in the "ecclesial assemblies" is to do away with power/authority.
The first analogy to come to my alleged mind is gun-control: We will try to make all weak so that none may abuse strength. And of course, that doesn't work. D.C. and Maryland with among the strictest gun laws in the nation have high rates of gun-related crime. And in any event, such laws reflect a lack of faith in citizens.
And such crippled church polities may possibly reflect a lack of faith in God's ability to make a silk purse out of the sow's ear of a bunch o' Papists..
And indeed it is hard to "believe" when we have the "long train of abuses" in Popes of hundreds of years ago and among some clerics of this age.
But as I am constantly reminding my co-religionists, the Catholic Church summons us to "man up", not to let the clergy do all our thinking and deciding for us. Many are those who have the "reverse scape -gaot" appraoch to spirituality. Just as we put our sins of a goat and run him off, we expect somebody else to be good for us, and keep him around. At least the first has some kind of divine backing. The second is sloth, pure and simple.
I am troubled, not so much by the piety but by the cultural dependence that some catholics indulge in.
A local priest has a kind of "I don't give a flip," about some Church regulations. One of my dear friends, from Turin but now living here, has REAL difficulty articulating the problem. I'm working on him.
A monsignor once came to our former parish to talk to us who were concerned that the Diocese, having, milked some loot from us, was going to close us.
Unwisely, he tried to suggest that we had not done much to show the diocese how we would fit into and contribute to a plan for this area. It was unwise because we had just raised some serious loot to by a house for a priest who served three congregations.
As you can imagine, I endeavored to use some strong, clear, and vigorous language to invite the good monsignor to consider the likely outcome of asking us to raise around $40k (as I think it was) and then, after we had done so to belittle our efforts. I think he will remember the encounter. Okay? 'Nuff said? Mos Definitely?
But what amused me was my, now departed, friend Rita kind of yanking at me and whispering for me to be more respectful.
Again, one of my heroines is Catherine of Siena. She was not all sweet and submissive and dependent. And SHE's not only a saint but a Doctor of the Church.
You GO girl, sez me! I bet there was at least one Pope and a number of clergy who, knowing her and hearing accusations of keeping souls in bondage would fall down on the floor laughing. "I wish!" echoes around the parsonage walls.
I remember once my old, now dead, cat Sam encountering a German Shepherd: German Shepherd comes bounding up, cheerfully expecting to keep a little feline soul in bondage. Sam just hunkered a little, growled softly, asked, "May I help you?" and looked him daid in the eye. G.S. puts on brakes,slowly begins to creep backwards, and suddenly remembers an appointment on the other side of town.
Souls in bondage, my Aunt Fanny! Those who know how to read, remember what the widows of influence in the congregation did for St. Paul.
Any souls-in-bondage priest who goes up against a brace of determined widows .... well, I'd just like ringside seats for that fight.
We like to lambaste the clergy for the child abuse thing. And so we should. But other candidates for a clock cleaning are the parents who chose saying, "Yes, father," over acting like grown-ups.
Okay. Time to lave the corpse and take it to church.
I must be missing something. What is the significance? What astounding revelation have you made? Answer in one sentence please. In black font. Start it like this: " The significance of a large majority of Catholic Churches named for saints is___________." You get to fill in the blank. Thanks ahead of time.
I do, however, believe that there are some entire systems built upon intimidation, and that believe that it is justified to further “the kingdom.”
There is one entire system of several hundred Baptist preachers in the Philippines who use fear tactics and intimidation to keep people in their churches and force them to obey, and use those people's resources for their personal purposes, as well as to build their religious dominions. — I just have to say this: They had good instruction from another outfit that has pretty much run the Philippines for the past 500 years. — Those Baptist preachers have their people kowtow-ing to them like many of their church members and million s of others do the priests of that OTHER outfit. And a big problem is that this group is heavily financed by American Christians who have been hoodwinked, and haven't a clue as to the real situation.
And I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the WHOLE system and outfit is corrupt and even spiritually dangerous, and needs to be FLUSHED!
Some Presbyterian and Episcopal congregations in the USA are finding this true with their outfits, too, and are having to man the life boats.
I think you make good points.
In think all forces both sides have mentioned are operant.
Therefore what, I don’t know. I just live here.
Pondering . . .
thanks.
The significance of a large majority of Catholic Churches named for saints is___________
that many hundreds, thousands of individual decisions went into those names . . .
demonstrating the
RELATIVE PRIORITIES of those individuals
CHOOSING MARY OVER GOD TWICE AS MANY TIMES
CHOOSING MARY AND OTHER GRADUATED SAINTS MORE THAN 7 TIMES AS OFTEN AS GOD WAS CHOSEN.
PRIORITIES—OUR PRIORITIES MATTER TO GOD—ALL THE MORE SO WHEN HE GETS THE BOTTOM OF THE TOTEM POLE.
Very simple. PRIORITIES, PERSONAL PRIORITIES OF THE HEART.
You lost me when you blamed the Catholics for how the Baptists behave. It’s a sad commentary that they are not held responsible for their own behavior, that the Baptist ministers don’t know wrong from right.
VERY WELL AND ACCURATELY PUT.
THX.
Why would the Philippine Baptists take instruction from the Muslims?
Not terribly surprising.
Thank you both for your generous and kind words.
It IS a problem. I remember chatting with my brother’s in-laws, both of whom are pshrinks (MD types) about the “pathology of religion” as I put it.
And also trying to explain to another deputy that the proper aim of psychotherapy and related stuff was to enable people to take responsibility, NOT to enable them to avoid it.
I mean, I do all the novena and rosary and penance stuff, a lot of the stuff that makes Protestant flesh crawl ... but at least in my better moments I do it out of a sense of and desire to have to to express the freedom, joy, and love which we seek and find in IHS. It’s my offering, not a bribe or any kind of purchase, but a “sacrifice of thanksgiving”.
But even among the lay-Dominicans, I see the lust for power and control creeping sometimes around the edges of our consciousness. And even in moiself, confiscated and sancrofied as I am! No, it’s true. I too have erred. Of course it was a really great error and everybody loved it, but it WAS an error.
So we laugh at ourselves, we laugh, gently at each other,m we go to one another and suggest, “Pssst! For FREEDOM Christ has set you free! You DO have to give your life to Him, but not to pastor so-and-so ...”
Sounds like you’ve found yourself in a loving church, one that loves the Lord and allows the Spirit to operate. You are blessed.
No, thanks. I’ll let you guys do that.
Well, well, well. I’m glad I can do it with stunning facility. I learned it from you.
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