Popular notions, Bible clash over heaven

Baptist Press ^ | July 17, 2008 | Norm Miller

[Sans-Culotte]

You contradict yourself. You have no way of knowing which are "empty" and which are not.

No I don't. I am just saying that an evil guy like Hitler cannot mouth words he does not believe so that God will say "Drat! Another evil guy saved because he uttered the secret words at the right time! I was going to send him to Hell, but he tricked me!". I am saying an empty confession is empty, and that someone cannot "beat the system". I expect a lot of deathbed confessions are of the empty variety, though not necessarily all.

[stuartcr]

That’s because I forget who I asked, and since I’ve always said that I ask these questions to get answers from people, not from God, I’ll continue to ask...unless I happen to remember.

I don’t think rejection is an adverse fate...besides, it’s obviously what God wants me to do, or I wouldn’t be doing it.

Anyway, no one really answers, they just say because the bible says so. If someone actually said that they didn’t really know, it’s just what I believe, then I probably wouldn’t ask them anymore...unless I forgot that I had already talked with them.

Besides, everyone else always says the same things in these discussions, so what’s the problem?

[MHGinTN]

That’s quite the Gordian knot your constructed! Wow. Is it comforting to you?

[jmc813]

I think the concept that when we die, we are teleported to another planet called Heaven a bit odd.

I'm surprised to see you post this. Maybe I'm mixing you up with someone, but I could have sworn you were Christian.

[stuartcr]

Hey, I didn’t construct it, God did.

[MHGinTN]

"I don’t think rejection is an adverse fate...besides, it’s obviously what God wants me to do, or I wouldn’t be doing it." Addressing the underlined portion, you have yet to reach the conclusion that you are responsible for rejecting that which is offered to your free soul.

[lupie]

Too many evangelicals see lost man as their primary focus, rather than Christ Jesus.

Well said. It isn't about men, it isn't about how we can work to save men, it is all about Christ Jesus who redemptive work has already been accomplished. It is not about what we can do, but what He has already done and where He is leading us.

[stuartcr]

Probably because, as I’ve said many time before, I don’t believe we have free souls...we do as God designed us to.

[MHGinTN]

"I don’t think rejection is an adverse fate...besides, it’s obviously what God wants me to do, or I wouldn’t be doing it." Addressing just the underlined portion, blaming God for your free choice isn't an escape clause, but that was a fair yet juvenile try. When you mature to understand that God is Just, you will gain the corollary that you have responsibilities where His Justice is in play beacuse He gave you free choice, at least in some areas which you heretofore have tried to remain a child with regard to.

[Verloona Ti]

According to Toland, Hitler DID consider the priesthood-when he was about 9 years old! He said he was going to be a priest when he grew up, and he 'practiced' by wrapping towels and sheets around himself like priestly vestments, and repeating as much as he could remember of the most recent service. His congregation consisted of his adoring mother , the maid of all work, maybe a younger sibling now and then. But by the time of his first communion, he was irreligious, to the point that he had to be scolded for trying to disrupt the ceremonies by persuading the other children to go play cowboys and indians with him . (He was a big reader of Karl May's "western" novels.)

I've always thought that would be a fascinating scene to recreate in a Hitler biopic : Him as a young boy, giving his "sermon"...But with intimations of the famous hand gestures and postures of the later dictator.

[SoothingDave]

The Church is prevented from error in matters of dogma.

[naturalized]

OK, I get the unquencheable fire part. But doesn’t the chaff get burned up?

[SoothingDave]

I am just saying that an evil guy like Hitler cannot mouth words he does not believe so that God will say "Drat! Another evil guy saved because he uttered the secret words at the right time! I was going to send him to Hell, but he tricked me!". I am saying an empty confession is empty, and that someone cannot "beat the system".

I don't think any major denomination teaches that God can be tricked by mere words. He knows men's hearts.

[SoothingDave]

I don’t believe we have free souls...we do as God designed us to.

Let me get this straight. You believe God created you to reject Him?

[hoagy62]

I guess I'll add my 2 cents....

As a Christian, we know 2 things for certain:

1) Hell is a bad place. You don't want to go there. Mankind, because of the Original Sin of Adam and Eve, is destined to go there because they do not meet God's standards of perfection.

2) Because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, on a Roman cross, you don't have to go to Hell...IF you believe that He died, rose again from the dead, AND are willing to freely turn your life over to His care and direction as Lord.

Now, having said that, it does follow that a Christian, knowing that Hell is a bad place, would not wish for anyone to go there. However, that is not true for all. I'll 'splain...

One of the things that Hell signifies is the concept of Ultimate Justice. It doesn't matter your social status, how much money you did or did not have, who you know on earth, or any other factor SAVE for the submission of your life to Jesus. It means that all the terrible people we've heard about over the years who have passed away are now, and will forever more be punished for their crimes. Every unrepentant soul, no matter who they are, who either decided that they openly reject Jesus and want live their own way, or simply did not care, is now and forever more will be tormented in eternal flames.

This means that people who mock the Christian religion, although Christians might be unable to do anything about it, unless they repent, will be ultimately punished.

It means the foul creep who kills a family and robs their home, even though he is never caught, unless he repents, will be ultimately punished.

It means that the fat cat who cares nothing for the poor person and lives only for his own pleasures, unless he repents, will be ultimately punished.

It means the Congressperson or Senator who passes laws that fly in the face of the laws of God, or who's inaction causes the death of innocents...no matter their age, or whose lives are monuments to corruption and greed, unless they repent, will be ultimately punished.

It means the judge, no matter how high the bench they sit on, that do not provide true justice but instead rule on laws that prevent justice from happening, unless they repent, will be ultimately punished.

It means that everyone from the illegal alien to the DUmmies who deride us...from the liberal Democrat who demands special rights for homosexuals, to the environmentalists who wish to cripple the economy and throw us all back to the Middle Ages in the name of "Mother Earth"...from the Islamic Jihadist who wants all American infidels dead, to the former President who sullied the office he held with adultery (and his wife who likely had people murdered)...

Unless they ALL repent and name Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God as their Lord and Savior...then they will eventually face Ultimate Justice and be sent for an eternity in the everlasting fires of Hell.

[stuartcr]

What you call blame, I call accepting things as they are.

I don’t believe there is anything to escape from.

I will always do as God wants. If at some time, it happens to agree with what you believe, it’s OK by me.

Apparently, He wants you to call me names.

[stuartcr]

How come your church is prevented from error, but the Calvinists aren’t?

[stuartcr]

What makes you say that I reject God?

[Zechariah_8_13]

So what about people, past and present who have never had the opportunity to hear of Christ? Just suppose they have never ‘sinned’, and by their nature unkbnowingly abided by the 10 commandments? Are you telling me Jesus Christ would send them to fry in Hell?

Think of it this way: God is perfect and all-knowing. He knows and has known the most intimate details of every life, and in fact, apart from His Will, no life would exist at all.

None of us are so far from God that we cannot find him. God is there and always has been there for all of us if we seek him. I believe in a loving God whose wish is truly that none should perish.

As a real life example of how God can reach people, I know two people - one raised Buddhist, one raised Muslim, who had never heard of Jesus Christ or Christianity. Both were seeking after truth and the person of Christ revealed himself to them in a dream. Both are now committed, passionate believers. If you talk in Christian circles you'll find that this happens quite often.

When God is sought He will be found. And sometimes He'll be found in this life even when He isn't sought.

(and obviously I am NOT a Calvinist)

[xJones]

Doesn’t God know when He creates someone, if they are going to live a life that will have no opportunity to hear of Christ? If so, then isn’t that the same as creating someone that is doomed at birth, to go to hell, no matter what?

The Calvinists have a much more encompassing view than just that. It doesn't matter if you were born next door to a Calvinist church, attended it all your life, and did your best - if you're not among God's elected you were born to fry.

You may ask how do you know if you're among the elected. Apparently if you have to ask, that means you not one of them.

This means that the God who knew you in your mother's womb decided before your birth that you'd be eventually sent to his eternal fry cook and there's not a thing you can do about it. And that's the Calvinist God of ever lasting mercy and love.