Popular notions, Bible clash over heaven

Baptist Press ^ | July 17, 2008 | Norm Miller

[andysandmikesmom]

Thanks for that most outstanding post...

[Enosh]

“But I am still looking for a text which says mere mortals such as we rub elbows with daily are punished to the same degree.”

This seems to be the true basis of the argument. We mere mortals are less guilty and thus deserve a lesser punishment. I disagree with the conclusion and we have shown two different takes on Rev. 20.

You say people thrown into the lake of fire die, I say they do not. Fine.

How about Daniel 12:2? What is meant by ‘everlasting contempt?’

[Pan_Yans Wife]

To find the definition of good and evil, you need look no further than the Good Book. God clearly defines what He considers good to be.

You say that some acts are neutral. I disagree. Even to evaluate an act as neutral you are first determining that it is better than the bad act.

Don’t you see that this leads to the reasoning that the first act is bad and the second is good? It is your human mind that is evaluating it.

But with God, good and evil are written out in black and white.

I think of good and evil like I think of white and black. White is all color. Black is the absence of color. You may determine that there is a gray, but again, the gray is a little better than the black, in that it is X number of steps closer to white.

[Grizzled Bear]

Your statement that all are immortal in these two verses is not so. Those whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life are thrown into the lake of fire - which is their second death. It is only the redeemed that have been given immortality (see I Cor. 15:35-57) Again, it is the unredeemed that will suffer the second death by being thrown into the lake of fire. I haven't the time to list all the multitude of Scriptures that tell us that the unredeemed with suffer "death" as the penalty for sin. Romans 6;23 says that "the wages of sin is death", not "life in hell-fire." Some refer to this as a "living death", but that is self-contradictory: death is the absence of life, plain and simple. Read II Peter 3 and see what he has to say about the destruction of ungodly men and the end of the world.

I understood the "Second Death" to be total separation from God. I admit that I could be mistaken.

[MHGinTN]

Thank you so much for that link! It rang in my soul like a tuning fork that causes a quiet fork of like note to vibrate when the first is set to vibrating. I particularly liked the explanation of how the Love of God will be torment to some and LIFE to others, but His Love will go forth the same to both yet the reception of It will be so different based upon the disposition of the heart.

[epow]

In fact, Revelation 20 enforces the teaching that the unredeemed with suffer the "second death", just as they suffered their "first death."

Correctamundo TD. As you say, the great white throne judgment described in Rev ch 20 is reserved for the unsaved who during their life on earth declined to accept Jesus Christ by faith in Him as their Lord and Savior. Since they declined to accept the gracious offer of Jesus to pay the penalty for their sins they will be judged according to their works in their earthly life. Which means that even one unlawful act or thought (Matt 5:28) will be found sufficient to disqualify a man or woman for eternal life and to consign him/her to eternal damnation in a place of suffering infinitely far from God's Heaven. IOW, they will be condemned to "the second death" because they refused God's free offer of eternal life through faith in His Son Jesus Christ and His atoning death in their place.

But, those who have been declared righteous by virtue of their belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God in human flesh and in His resurrection from the grave, and have confessed Him before men as Lord have had their penalty for sin paid by Jesus' atoning death (Romans 10:9-10). And wonderful wonder of wonders, His perfect righteousness has been put to their account. Because of that, and only because of that, they will not be judged at the Great White Throne judgment. Their imputed innocence of all sin well be confirmed by the angel finding their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, and they will enter into God's holy city called Heaven to reside there forever.(Rev 21:27)

Read all about it y'all, it's in the Book that many of you have in your homes but never open.

[epow]

I understood the "Second Death" to be total separation from God. I admit that I could be mistaken.

But you aren't. Jesus spoke as plainly about the unbelievers' fate separated from God in an eternal hell as he did about the believers' eternal life in Heaven. (Luke 16:22-26). All men and women will die physically unless they are among those believers who will be raptured to meet Jesus in the air, but only those unbelievers who refused the free gift of salvation in their earthly lives will be condemned to hell at the Great White Throne Judgment. If physically dead unbelievers are present at that judgment, as the book of Revelation says, how can natural death be their punishment if they are condemned to the lake of fire as that passage also says they will be?

Some Christian people believe that the term "lake of fire" is descriptive of a place of mental and emotional suffering and is not literal fire, and I can't prove beyond doubt that they are mistaken. But I firmly believe that many people who spiritualize the bible wherever it offends their sensibilities are often denying the plain truth that God intends as His warnings to unbelievers of what awaits them if they persist in unbelief until their physical death.

[don-o]

I’m not sure, but I think I may have posted a thread on it years ago that went nowhere.

I may try again sometime. I’m pleased that you benefited from reading it.

[Enosh]

‘I understood the “Second Death” to be total separation from God.’

That is a good way to put it and I agree. But another viewpoint seizes on “the wages of sin is death,” and applies it directly to the Final Judgment. This would also imply that the wages of sin is two deaths, a silly notion in my opinion.

Indeed, it borders on Buddhism.

[Elsie]

I am making no claim that this perspective is valid or not, however, it does address the nagging feeling that some have expressed and which I have felt, that the God of the Christian scriptures seems to demand devotion rather than inspire it.

Before I became a Christian, I had this notion the God was out to get me: to PUNISH me for the things I'd done wrong.

To ZAP me for the laws i'd scorned.

After all, the popular media siad this was how He(she?) was.

Even after beCOMING a Christian, that notion was STILL there!

But I can to realize that was a strawman; put in place by one who DIDN'T want me to know God's love.

---

I find it very interesting that this was a topic of debate in very early Christianity (though this dissident view was ultimately suppressed) by the powers that be in those days.

I'd call it an incorrect view more than dissident.

[Elsie]

See II Peter Chapter three - in full. Especially verses 7, 11-13.

 

 

2 Peter 3

 

 1.  Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking.
 2.  I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
 3.  First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
 4.  They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
 5.  But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
 6.  By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
 7.  By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
 8.  But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
 9.  The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
 10.  But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
 11.  Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
 12.  as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.  That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
 13.  But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
 14.  So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.
 15.  Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
 16.  He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
 17.  Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
 18.  But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

[Elsie]

If someone were to die, and then come back, would you believe their account of what happens after we die?

 

Luke 16:19-31
19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21. and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24. So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25. "But Abraham replied, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27. "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
28. for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29. "Abraham replied, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30. "`No, father Abraham,' he said, `but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31. "He said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

[Elsie]

He would.

WHAT!!??

It sounds like you believe what the BOOK said, and not what a lot of people THINK the BOOK said!

[Elsie]

They were all crying and made all the kids cry too.

And SO many parents entrust their children to these non-believers every day.

[Elsie]

Probably as comforting to him as it is for you in the knowledge that mormons exist.

And are found in the FLDS.

[Elsie]

As you say, the great white throne judgment described in Rev ch 20 is reserved for the unsaved who during their life on earth declined to accept Jesus Christ by faith in Him as their Lord and Savior.

UNSAVED?

That's not how it reads...

Revelation 20

 

 1.  And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
 2.  He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
 3.  He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
 4.  I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5.  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
 6.  Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
 7.  When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
 8.  and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
 9.  They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
 10.  And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 11.  Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
 12.  And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
 13.  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
 14.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
 15.  If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

[cerberus]

I'd call it an incorrect view more than dissident.

Splitting hairs perhaps?

Prior to the fourth century there was no "New Testament". Most people could not read and there were very few "books". Most stories about the life of Jesus and what he said were passed down orally and written down much later.

It is very difficult to know what Christianity was really like in those days and how it could have evolved much differently than it did.

But I can to realize that was a strawman; put in place by one who DIDN'T want me to know God's love.

I too believe in God's love, but I believe that it transcends Christianity and all of the other beliefs.

However, I realize that you don't agree with me and I respect that.

[Knute]

Very interesting thread! When I am not on FreeRepublic, I am often on a board for people with melanoma. When one of the members there loses their battle, the euphemism “earned their wings” is utilized, implying that they have become angels and gone to heaven. Several problems with this theology!
Through personal experience, I have learned not to argue this nuance in the public forum, but have often gone to private messages to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[DouglasKC]

Not really. Although Rom. 5:8 mentions that Christ "DIED" for us - meaning that we face death, not life in a lake of fire (hell?). Just like Rom. 6:23 says, "the wages of sin is death", not a miserable "life" everlastingly. Again, where in the Bible do you find the doctrine that the unredeemed with spend life after death in "hell"?

Nowhere of course. This type of thread is good because it forces people to think about "hell", but unfortunately it teaches non-biblical doctrine. What does the bible say what the fate of unrepentant sinners is?

From the beginning God is clear about what happens if you don't obey him or his laws, if you sin:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Die. Not burn eternally. Die.

And this brings up a good point. If man can die, than man isn't already "immortal". We are not eternal.

Back to Adam and Eve. What did God do when Adam and Eve sinned?

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God blocked the way to eternal life, immortal life, from man. Man is temporal. Man is physical. Man is composed of dust, dirt and clay, or at least the same elements. Man, in and of himself, is mortal.

Oh, and who was it that perpetuated the lie, the myth, that man doesn't really die?

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan started the lie that man has an immortal soul. That we don't really "die" like God said.

Eternal life, immortal life, and immortal soul, ONLY comes through Jesus Christ.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What are the options? Perish OR eternal life. Not eternal life burning forever OR eternal life with Jesus. PERISH or eternal life.

The greek word translated "perish" means to "destroy fully".

Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

We lose our life, or we have eternal life.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God DESTROYS our SOUL and body in hell. In Gehenna fire. Our soul is what we are, not what we have. We WILL be destroyed if we reject Christ.

[MHGinTN]

The letters in the NT originated within, at most, sixty to eighty years following the resurrection. Paul's letters connect to the very days of the resurrected Lord following the ascension. Trying to create the notion of vagueness will not remove the individual responsibility to accept or reject the Lord Christ. Such efforts aimed at dismissing Him and His offering to humankind are called 'vain imaginings' in scripture. If you would like more regarding the clarity/accuracy of the Gospel as conveyed to us via the NT letters from those directly connected to Jesus, do a google on Gary Habermas and view some of his video teachings on the subject as he presents the perspective of an Historian regarding the Gospel, often to college classrooms. If you would like deeper intellectual vagaries, try googling William Lane Craig. There is also a wealth of material at 'bethinking.org' in videos, audios, and written texts.