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To: thefrankbaum

No, Calvinists hold to a real, but spiritual rather than physical presence. I was unfamiliar with the Methodist view, so I looked it up. It looks like they actually are closer to Calvin than I would have guessed.

“The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another, but rather is a sacrament of our redemption by Christ’s death; insomuch that, to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith receive the same, the bread which we break is a partaking of the body of Christ; and likewise the cup of blessing is a partaking of the blood of Christ.

...

The body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten in the Supper, only after a heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is faith.

...”

http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1651

(This being an Ecuminical thread, I supplied the two paragraphs which deal positively with their view, and omitted the pair that speak negatively of the beliefs of another communion. )

So I’ll not concede either the Methodists nor the Presbyterians to the Baptist view.

3. Given the rules of the thread, I’ll not comment on the Catholic view, only the Reformed.

Yes, he has the ‘sign and seal’ part right, but my complaint is that he didn’t go far enough. It is more than a sign or seal, it is also a means of grace in Reformed theology as the believer receives spiritual nourishment.

4. “If we have the capability to respond, mustn’t we exercise that capability?”

That would be the “I” in TULIP - Irresistable Grace.

We are dead in our sins, God by his grace sends the Holy Spirit to quicken us (thus my earlier comment on Grace not being dependent in any manner upon us), and draws us to him.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified (Romans 8:30)


21 posted on 07/16/2008 6:41:13 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35
1, 3. Well, I'll defer to you on Reformed theology, since you are much more clearly learned in it than I am. I guess I see it this way: because there is a prerequisite - being a believer - to receiving the grace, receiving communion is merely an opportunity for grace. Thus, grace is communicated more on the internal disposition of the candidate, rather than by the objective act. Anyways, I think we best leave this discussion for a more appropriate thread - if you happen upon any posts clearly explaining the theology, would you kindly ping me to them?

4. Well, I'm more of a Molinist, I suppose. We've made the choice to believe in Christ - the fact that God created a world where the circumstances would arise whereby we would freely make that choice has no bearing on our freedom to do so. We were predestined by the world God created, but our decision to love Him is ours to make - if it were otherwise, how could it be real love?

22 posted on 07/16/2008 7:30:29 PM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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