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To: NYer

While I respect the position, the idea that you are predestined but people can reject that decree of an Almighty God is not in accord with Scripture.

If you can reject it, it is not predestination......it would be PINO, predestination in name only.

God’s decree is perfect and not something that fails.

The reason I believe Calvinism is correct and actually NOT too strong on the decree side of things is that WHEN UNDERSTOOD PROPERLY it does NOT make us puppets. When taught incorrectly by those who ARE WRONG and go too far, the hyper-Calvinists, it does make people puppets. But, not true Calvinism. In the end, people still get exactly what they want, it just is in accord with God’s electing purpose as well.

Predestination that allows for a rejection of it isn’t what Scripture teaches.


4 posted on 07/13/2008 1:46:45 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: rwfromkansas
Predestination that allows for a rejection of it isn’t what Scripture teaches.

Where do you disagree with the scriptural references?

6 posted on 07/13/2008 1:55:30 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: rwfromkansas
If you can reject it, it is not predestination......it would be PINO, predestination in name only.

Good point! Here's what the WCF has to say on the subject:

Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3: Of God’s Eternal Decree
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 5: Of Providence
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 9: Of Free Will
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 18: Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation

7 posted on 07/13/2008 2:46:02 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: rwfromkansas; NYer; Alex Murphy
I, too, would like to know where the Catholic teaching on Predestination that respects the free will is "not in accord with Scripture".

I also would like to know how not being "puppets" is different from the Catholic concept of free will, and where, exactly, should I look in the Westmisnter Confession to understand the difference.

I think you are onto something here. My conversations with Calvinists on predestination fall in two distinct groups. One is what you probably mean by "too strong on the decree side", and is a complete denial of the patristic and Catholic teaching. The other describes to me a perfectly Catholic, Thomist to be precise, philosophy of predestination and free will, while avoiding Catholic terminology.

11 posted on 07/14/2008 1:38:16 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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