Posted on 07/03/2008 10:06:26 AM PDT by NYer
Just a bunch of cross dressers who have figured out how to make a living without working. No one needs anyone to intercede for them with God.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
I know this is 2 different threads and I honestly spent about an hour answering your questions and then I wondered what in the heck I was doing wasting my time?!?
It doesn’t matter what I say, you still won’t believe it and it isn’t up to me to make you believe it, it is up to the Holy Spirit.
I don’t go around trying to convert non-Catholics to Catholicism, no-one ever tried to convert me and I’m Catholic. I’ll leave that to God. As an ex-Protestant I thought I had fullness of faith too.
You have your Bible, study it, if you really want to know about Catholicism study it, the internet is out there.
I was married to an alcoholic for 13 yrs and it just dawned on me that that’s how many non-Catholics argue on the FR forum. The same old stuff over and over again and I guarantee you that you can never really win an argument with an alcoholic, it is part of the disease and I gave that up 26+ yrs ago. Obviously, I’m susceptible or I wouldn’t have married an alcoholic and I should know better than to let other people push my buttons. But I’m aware of it now and I just can’t waste the time or the effort on people who just want to argue or advance their POV.
I don’t care that you have your faith, please, by all means, carry on. I don’t care that you have your point of view but I’m tired of playing the “Whack-a-Catholic” game because there is never any ending point. I’ll leave it to those who don’t get emotional and there are some really great ones on FR, so don’t feel abandoned, they are out there and they’ll tell you anything you want to know if you are polite and they’ll tell you more than what you want to know if you’re rude.
God Bless, good luck and good-bye.
I have only been to one non-Catholic church that had bibles in the pews. That was an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church. That was to ensure that you had the approved version. None of the others which included Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal had anything but a hymnal.
I recently attended a funeral service at a Presbyterian church. There were no bibles in the pews - only hymnals.
Since, according to Scripture, our Lord entrusted the power to forgive or retain sins to His Apostles and their followers, why not follow Chris's instructions? How do you know if your sins are forgiven?
I've attended services at lots of different denominations over the years, here are my observations:
Episcopalians NEVER have Bibles in the pews. They don't have missalettes either - Scripture for the day is in the bulletin leaflet. Pews contain the Hymnal and the Book of Common Prayer, along with prayer cards and donation envelopes (and those little stubby pencils that always fall down in the bottom of the pew rack).
Presbyterians: no Bibles. Hymnals.
Baptists: depends. Mainstream Baptists, no. I think I recall seeing Bibles in the pews at an Independent Baptist church. The oldest Baptist church I know - Good Hope Baptist, Uchee, AL - has no Bibles in the pews, just hymnals.
Church of God of Prophecy: did have Bibles in the pews. Only attended once, for a funeral.
Methodists: Hymnal, with the Order of Worship in the back. Scripture's in the bulletin.
The most fundamentalist church I have ever attended was a little Church of Christ (NOT UCC) congregation way out in the country. No Bibles in the pews! Everybody brought their own copies, full of bookmarks and underlining.
***I have only been to one non-Catholic church that had bibles in the pews. That was an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church. ***
Similar experiences here. I’ve been to two independant non denominational churches that had a couple of Bibles in each pew. No Anglican, Lutheran (MS or ELCA), Presbyterian or Baptist church that I’ve been in has had a Bible in the pews. Come to think of, neither has any Church of Christ that I’ve been in.
***Just a bunch of cross dressers who have figured out how to make a living without working. No one needs anyone to intercede for them with God.***
And with this posting, you figure that you are buds with God?
Look, it is possible to obtain forgiveness of sins directly from God without human intermediaries. But, if that's the final state of that forgiveness, you'd better be dying with no priest around! The ordinary means of forgiveness is through priests who have this power transmitted through the ages by apostolic succession. As I and others here have made clear many times, it is God who forgives sins, but He chooses to forgive them through His priests. This is because all of his Sacraments interact with human beings in some material or visible way.
When I have gone to confession, I know my sins are forgiven, because He said so. It's cheap as pizza to just look up to Heaven and say "Sorry, Lord" after committing any sin, from simple theft to murder. Yes, they can all be forgiven, but securing God's forgiveness in the way He intended forces one to have some introspection and real contrition. No one likes going to another man and baring his sinful soul, so this fact alone helps one try to create a "firm purpose of amendment," with a view to sinning no more. Jesus, as a Man, knows our human nature perfectly, and built His means of forgiveness around it. It costs something spiritually and emotionally to confess our sins through a man who is a sinner too! It is simultaneously humbling and awe-inspiring that Jesus would have us do this to obtain His forgiveness. And, when done, we know we have been forgiven! A system that has abandoned this method, ordained by Christ, fifteen hundred years after He established it, is on very sandy ground, with a foundation built entirely of presumption. I'll stick with what He has clearly established, thank you.
***A system that has abandoned this method, ordained by Christ, fifteen hundred years after He established it, is on very sandy ground, with a foundation built entirely of presumption. I’ll stick with what He has clearly established, thank you.***
Scripturally and traditionally sound. I compliment you sir.
Thank you all for your input on this subject of whether or not churches provide Bibles in their pews...it seems that the three of you, have had the same experiences that I have had, that is, that most churches, regardless of denomination, usually do not provide Bibles in the pews for those in attendance...I guess this may all come down to each particular church, or congregation, making those decisions, taking into consideration things such as their budget, what they expect of their members, etc...
It appears there is no general consensus....appears to be just a individual thing...that is, each particular church, does as it sees fit, or does as it is able, concerning providing Bibles in their pews...
Since, according to Scripture, our Lord entrusted the power to forgive or retain sins to His Apostles and their followers, why not follow Chris's instructions? How do you know if your sins are forgiven?"
I'll repeat a question I asked earlier.
If Christ intended that human beings ask for forgiveness (and receive forgiveness) through the agency of ordained human beings, and not directly from God Himself, why does the Lord's Prayer, which is addressed to "Our Father", include a petition to have one's "trespasses" or "debts" forgiven?
Wouldn't it have made more sense to have Jesus, when He was responding to a request from His followers to show them how to pray, not include a direct petition to God to have their trespasses forgiven?
This is no ordinary petition to God asking for His mercy. We not only ask Him to be merciful to us, but we dare place a condition and a norm on Gods forgiveness. It is the practice and the measure of our forgiveness to others. We pray for the strength to forgive so that we might be forgiven in return. By offending God in sin, we incur a debt of love and punishment for our misdeeds. We owe God greater love than we would have had we not sinned, and we owe Him a debt of suffering as punishment for offending the Divine Majesty.
So, how do you know when you have sinned? What is the measure against which you recognize your sins? Are all sins forgivable? More importantly, once you believe you have sinned and ask forgiveness from God, how do you know it has been granted?
Wouldn't it have made more sense to have Jesus, when He was responding to a request from His followers to show them how to pray, not include a direct petition to God to have their trespasses forgiven?
The answer is simple, really. Because, when you go to sacramental confession, you are asking God to forgive your sins, and He is doing so through the priest. You don't need the priest's forgiveness about anything, you need God's. That's why you go. And, since you need God's forgiveness, and you seek it when confessing your sins, it is perfectly appropriate to ask for these things, both ahead of the time and after the fact, when making a sacramental confession.
Not to complicate things here, but there is another point. Strictly speaking, only "mortal sins" must be confessed sacramentally. While it is certainly a good thing to confess "venial sins" in a sacramental confession, this is not absolutely "required." Therefore, one could recite the Lord's Prayer (especially at Mass, where one's venial sins are removed by the Mass itself), combined with contrition for such sins (yes, contrition is required for all sins, even venial ones), and such sins could be forgiven at that point.
"What is the Biblical basis for the distinction in levels of sins?" you ask. The answer can be found in 1 John 5:16-17, where John makes a distinction between "mortal" sins and those which are not "mortal." Non-mortal sins are known in the Catholic Church as "venial sins." Mortal sins destroy the sanctifying grace in one's soul, while venial since merely weaken that grace. The total absence of sanctifying grace in one 's soul at death means, by definition, that the person cannot ever enter into Heaven. Thus, sin that destroys such grace is "mortal" to one's soul, hence the name.
I hope this helps answer your question! :-)
Well, it helps me to see things better from a Roman Catholic point of view.
Still, it doesn't really answer (for me, anyway) the question of why Jesus, if He intended -- or commanded -- that sins (or even a certain category of sins) be confessed through a priest to God, would respond to a request from His own disciples about the proper way to pray, and include in that prayer -- a prayer prayed directly to "Our Father" -- a request to have one's trespasses (or debts) forgiven.
Why, if Jesus commanded His followers to confess their (mortal) sins to God through someone else, would Jesus have included this specific petition -- prayed directly to "Our Father"?
Jesus could have prayed like this, when demonstrating the way to pray to His disciples: "Provide us a means for the forgiveness of our mortal sins", but that isn't what he says.
He seems to make a point, in this prayer He prays in response to His disciples' request for a demonstration of prayer, of demonstrating that the sinner may -- or should -- request his or her forgiveness directly from the Father.
Don't go overboard weighing one passage against the other. Each finds meaning in the other. And consider that all Churches before the 1500s taught that God's forgiveness is normatively found within the context of John 20, as the Catholic Church teaches to this day.
Any time I do or think anything apart from the will of God, I sin.
"What is the measure against which you recognize your sins?"
I believe Jesus established a rather high standard in the Sermon on the Mount. It is not only what I do (or what I fail to do) that I must examine when I look for sin in my life, it is my intention -- am I motivated in all that I do and think by God, or am I attempting to be in control?
"Are all sins forgivable?"
I believe the only sin that Christ identifies as being unforgiveable is the "grieving of the Holy Spirit".
"More importantly, once you believe you have sinned and ask forgiveness from God, how do you know it has been granted?"
Because I take God at His word. IJohn 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us from all unrighteousness". I believe that promise of God.
Not to seem like I’m piling on, but your quote of 1John 1:9 is a good passage to harmonize with the Our Father as well. Notice that “asking,” as in the Our Father, and “confessing,” as in this passage, are not necessarily the same thing, as people would ordinarily understand them. Yet, you yourself equate the “confessing” with “asking,” or at least you seem to make them synonymous. So, in fact, you are not too far off from being able to see that God has tied into His plan for us the notion that He will dispense His forgiveness through “confession.” And confession is through another mere man, namely, a priest with the power to do this transmitted down from the Apostles, who received it from Christ Himself. To God be the glory!
Well phrased. chs ... recall the words of our Lord.
Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sin you retain, they are retained (John 20:22-23).
Claiming that no one but God can forgive sins, the Pharisees objected when Christ told the paralyzed man, who was lowered in front of Him, Son, your sins are forgiven you (Mark 2:5). but God can share this power with human beings.
Thus sins are remitted by the sacrament of baptism, as witnessed on Pentecost Sunday. And sins after baptism are also remitted by what the Church calls the power of the keys. This power is not possessed by all Christians, but only by those who have been ordained to the priesthood. It is this sharing in the divine power of forgiving sins that the Church believes she possesses. It is the greatest gift that the merciful Christ bequeathed to a sinful world until the end of time.
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