Posted on 06/30/2008 6:25:14 PM PDT by Utah Girl
Viewers of tonight's season premiere of "History Detectives" will learn that a book about the horrors of "Female Life Among the Mormons" is a work of fiction.
And the woman who owns the 1856 volume will be "disappointed" by that news.
"History Detectives" (8 p.m., Ch. 7) is a fascinating series in which historical objects are examined to determine if they're authentic. (Tonight's other two segments feature a World War II diary and a coin shot by Annie Oakley.)
In the case of the 1856 book about the horrors of Mormon polygamy, Marcie Waterman Murray of Stanfordville, N.Y., bought it at an auction and wants to know who wrote it. (There's no author listed.)
"I was very moved by this book. It really stayed with me a long time. I've become fascinated with it," Murray says.
What stayed with her is a barbaric account, written in the first person, of a young woman who married a Mormon elder in New York and traveled to Utah with Brigham Young. She suffered the "abominations" of polygamy and the "degradation it imposes on females."
That includes one account of a misbehaving wife who was stripped nude, tied to a tree and whipped until "blood ran to the ground."
Enter Tukufu Zuberi from "History Detectives."
"You don't know if this is a real book. You don't know if it's really from the 19th century. You don't know what it is," Zuberi said in a phone interview with the Deseret News. "But it is a document which definitely offers a skewed view toward marriage among Mormons.
"It puts (women) on the level of being slaves. You can take it as something that's either laughable, looking at it today, or something that really provided fuel for those who were anti-Mormon back in the 19th century."
Without detailing the entire episode, Zuberi quickly discovers that this is not a genuine history. Among other things, it purports to tell the story of Joseph Smith's death and gets it flat-out wrong.
And the show's conclusions are clear. "It seems that our book is little more than pulp fiction, and shot through with historical errors," Zuberi says in the show.
The segment briefly outlines 19th-century LDS history, including the effort to demonize Mormons.
"Someone could write it today in order to kind of speak badly of the Mormons," Zuberi said. "Someone could've written it then to speak badly of the Mormons. And that's our task — to find out."
He does his best to track down the author, including using "some high-tech stuff to determine who wrote the book and determine the authenticity or lack thereof."
"This one I was surprised by. The Mormon story has a lot of twists and turns."
In 21st-century Utah, "Female Life Among the Mormons" seems silly, even campy. But, obviously, the book's owner thought — perhaps hoped — it was genuine.
Upon learning that it's fiction, she gasps and says, "I'm actually a little disappointed. But I'm glad to know the truth."
But it certainly seemed as if she would've been more glad if Mormon women really had been tied to trees and whipped.
Yeah, I seem to remember one infamous thread a month or so back in which you announced that you were going to "hose down" all of us Gentile pigs with your LDS theology.
Bigotry comes in all forms, dude.
Besides the Central American claims, which some people claim is not LDS supported, they claim ‘evidence’ from North America as well.
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Besides reading the anti-Mormon sites, I also read some of the anti-Christian sites.
Their arguments are about as bad as the anti-Mormon sites.
To prove your are a good Christian, PROVE TO THEM that Jesus is really the Christ.
And, please practice here before you face the anti-Christians. I would like to see how you defend your belief in Christ.
If you ever read any of Zane Gray’s books about the LDS Church, you will find much of the same.
And part of his fiction is still being repeated today.
That sounds like the Ravi Zacharias' story about an atheistic professor who once asked his Christian students on a test:
"Prove God exists, and give 3 examples."
Everyday, Christians espouse their faith here, as well as pointing out what they believe to be false teaching.
I don't know what threads you have been on. The ones I have participated on contain numerous posts by Christians pointing out the Truth of the Gospel (un-"Restored", that is). The broadside from the LDS community has been (in my observation), the most vehement in opposition.
This has been in the form of complaints, accusations, insults, threats (both overt and of the legal variety), ridicule, and sophistry.
On this board, I have seen post after post from Mormons that they are entire Christian and Christ is their savior.
If you know the same Jesus as I know, then why would you ask me to defend Him any differently than you would?
Perhaps you are alluding to the fact that the Mormon Christ is not the same Christ.
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All I am asking is for you to prove that Jesus is the Christ so non believers will believe you, USING THE SAME STANDERS the anti-Mormons, and those of you who run with them, expect of us.
Your reply only told us why we are wrong and not why you are right.
And since we have been told that personal testimony is not excepted, your reply will need the same type of hard facts expected of us.
You know, you need to be able to do as you say others should do.
Come on, practice on us so you will be able to spread your gospel to the anti-Christian sights.
(I have a side bet for a soda-pop that you will not be able, and/or willing to tell us why you think Jesus is the Christ)
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Ps. go back and reread them.
They are good examples of preaching to the choir.
No help for those who do not believe that Jesus is the Christ.
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Pss. Now teach us that Jesus is the Christ by the same standers forced on us.
Then you will be ready to go teach the real non-Christians on their anti-Christ web sites.
(After writing this, I can see that there will be those who say that we are the “real non-Christians” so they can change the subject and side step answering. They will even post lots of things that will help them not have to face this question. They have done it in the past and I see no sign of them changing.)
Are you having trouble with the Enter key?
You used the shotgun method of trying to confuse the subject.
I dislike answering all remarks in the same post.
Now you are in line to win me a soda-pop because you have continued to walk around the main question.
Remember, the real question was on post 22::
“Besides reading the anti-Mormon sites, I also read some of the anti-Christian sites.
Their arguments are about as bad as the anti-Mormon sites.
To prove your are a good Christian, PROVE TO THEM that Jesus is really the Christ.
And, please practice here before you face the anti-Christians. I would like to see how you defend your belief in Christ.””
"We don't need no stinking details"
No, I would say your three separate responses to my one at times 3:53, 4:04; and 6:41 fit that definition.
I dislike answering all remarks in the same post.
It's tough to think, walk, rub your belly, and chew gum at the same time.
Now you are in line to win me a soda-pop because you have continued to walk around the main question.
Goody! Have a caffeine diet coke on me.
Remember, the real question was on post 22:: “Besides reading the anti-Mormon sites, I also read some of the anti-Christian sites. Their arguments are about as bad as the anti-Mormon sites.
That is not, nor was it ever, the "real question."
To prove your are a good Christian, PROVE TO THEM that Jesus is really the Christ.
Ahhh. This is perfect. Elsie, what number of the LDS Handbook is fproy2222 current tactic of: You Play Defense For Awhile!
And, please practice here before you face the anti-Christians. I would like to see how you defend your belief in Christ.”
Once again - if the LDS members are Christian, and your Christ is the same as my Christ, then why are you asking me that question?
Again and again, Mormons here shout that they are Christians, and that their Christ is the same as the Christian Christ.
Your challenge is your indictment.
Furthermore, I have seen you pull this tactic again and again on the forum. You demand Christians to answer your questions, but without citing scripture because you claim (falsely) that Christians ask Mormons to defend their faith without using Mormon scripture, which is absolutely false.
Have a good night.
Polygamy is an abomination and it degrades females
Anyone who has any doubts should read this primer prepared by the Arizona and Utah Offices of the Attorney General; and/or should watch this approximately 90 minute video on the subject.
Note: You should be warned the information contained in links both is extremely emotionally disturbing.
Utah Girl: I know the Book of Mormon is true because I have read it, prayed about it, and received an answer from the Spirit that it is true. Physical artifacts never converted anyone.
Physical artifacts, and/or the lack thereof, are crucial evidence of the validity of the BoM
FWIW: I have repeatedly asked Saints to address the dozens of questions concerning the accuracy of the Book of Mormon raised here. None have.
Praying to receive revelation is wrong for at least three reasons
REASON #1: It can result in false answers.
Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses believe they receive confirmation their faith is true through prayer and revelation. Are they not just as convinced they are right as you are? And as a Mormon, don't you reject their faiths? And doesn't this prove praying for revelation can result in false answers?REASON #2: Mormon Church Leaders instructed me to examine the evidence, and to do this before I pray for revelation.
I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test … I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him … let every man and woman know themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates or not. This has been my exhortation continually. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 16:46, as cited by Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1950, pp. 129-130).We are not so much concerned whether your thoughts are orthodox or heterodox as we are that you shall have thoughts … while all members should respect, support, and heed the teaching of the Authorities of the Church, no one should accept a statement and base his testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he has, under mature examination found it to be true and worthwhile; then his logical deductions may be confirmed by the spirit of revelation to his spirit because real conversion must come from within." (President Hugh B. Brown, a member of the LDS First Presidency, Dialog, Summer 1984, p. 15).
REASON #3: Praying for revelation is not valid is when we already have reliable information that answers a question.
For example, do you need to pray to find out how tall Mt. Everest is, or discover St. Louis is not the capital of the United States?In consideration of the above, I maintain Mormon leaders have indeed given wise advice. I therefore prefer to examine evidence in lieu of praying in the hope of receiving a warm fuzzy feeling.What can be accomplished in these cases through prayer? Is it possible for prayer to somehow invalidate the facts?
“To prove your are a good Christian, PROVE TO THEM that Jesus is really the Christ.” (Them = “anti-Christians”)
In order to do so, we must first establish a baseline dataset. If they are really atheists, OT prophecy concerning the Messiah cannot be used. Indeed, the whole Bible is out in such a case.
On the other hand, if someone asks me to show Jesus as Christ, it sounds like they actually believe Christ does/will exist. A good place to start there is the book of Hebrews.
... with a *nod* of respect to our Jewish brothers...
This is tragic.
The sad part is that Utah Girl, who is a nice person and who I have conversed with in the past, does not grasp the cult world she was raised in and that has her in her their grip.
When one read the Joseph SMith 'Translation' of the KIng Jmaes Bible --into King Jmaes English, purely via supposed revelation not even using his peepstone-- passages are 'prefaced' just like the one Utah Girl posted for us. Problem is, the prefaces all sound the same, as if authoritatively offering ONLY God's truths. Even the eight hundred plus added words at the end of Genesis which fabricate a prophecy of Joe Smith's advent 'in these latter days' is prefaced as if Gord's Word. That poison is offered after the previous 49 chapters of Genesis with only superficial 'editing' of the King James Bible. [I can post it for readers to make up their own minds on the fabrication, if someone wants that.]
Several Mormon posters are firm pro-lifers. they have discernment where issues of God's innocent little ones iare at issue. I always amazes me when I find such an one lost in Mormonism.
Gord = God, etc. Oh my, my tired, aching fingers are hitting too many keys simultaneously ...
Those questions have been answered by a couple of FReepers.
BTW, thanks for your concern about me. However, I know I am living the way Christ would have me live. :)
And if I would have left, my family would not have disowned me. I would have the same friends. I'm sure they'd all be praying for me. :) I just went to see the definition of a cult.
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies. OK the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does fit this definition.2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does fit this definition in regards to venerating Jesus Christ and His gospel, and the ideals He taught. Things? Nope.
3. the object of such devotion.Christ organized His church while He was upon the earth. We believe that it was restored in the latter days. So in that sense, yes, we are devoted to Christ and His restored gospel.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. Yes.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols. 6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. No. We live in society, we strive to be in the world, but not of the world. We are found in all walks of life. We don't lock ourselves up in compounds and not let the world in.
7. the members of such a religion or sect. If this refers to #6, then no.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific. –adjective Definitely not.
9. of or pertaining to a cult. Which definition? 10. of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees: a cult movie. 13 million members and counting...
Your definition of a cult is neither complete nor accurate. By contrast, I recommend you consider the following:
DEFINITIONS OF A CULT
The two most obvious example of cults are the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons believe many things that are in agreement with and/or similar to what the Bible teaches. However, they also believe numerous doctrines that are in clear contradiction to the Bible and the Biblical Gospel of salvation.
From a purely Biblical perspective, 2 Corinthians 11:4 gives us the clearest and most concise description of how cults may be discerned. False teachings, the apostle Paul warned here, will introduce three major errors to the unsuspecting in the name of Christianity:
- First they will preach their own determination of who Jesus Christ is, denying his Biblically revealed identity as God the Son and exchanging it with another. They'll point to "another Jesus."
- Second, cult teachers will proclaim a "gospel message" that is ultimately is a message of works-centered salvation, in sharpest contrast to the Good News of saving grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). They'll preach "another gospel."
- Third, the revealed spiritual nature of the work of the cult claims to be, but actually is not, inspired by God the Spirit. Instead, a chilling reference is made to spiritual entities who lend tremendous spiritual power to their natural human puppets to preach deceptive gospels. They'll be empowered by "another spirit." This is the work of demonic agents in allegiance with Satan, the opposer of God throughout history.
In short, a cult will energetically claim to follow the Bible and be the only group to be found anywhere who really are interpreting it correctly (hence the rationale for some countercult workers calling some groups "Bible based"). Ultimately, once examined, a questionable group's doctrines will always deny orthodox Biblical truth in some manner.
CATEGORIES OF CULTS
TEN COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABERRANT CHRISTIAN CULTS
Note: Any of the below is indicative of cults. The more attributes that apply, the more serious the problem.
OTHER SATANIC PRACTICES
Note: Sometimes, it helps to offer a contrast. As noted above, cults are organized "groups" of persons. The below are not formally structured, therefore are cannot be classified as a true cult – but are similar in that they are evil, anti-Christian and have fanatic adherents.
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