Posted on 06/27/2008 6:20:28 AM PDT by NYer
At least one Church of England bishop will defect to Rome soon after the Lambeth Conference, I gather from Anglo-Catholic sources. And there could be more to follow.
I can't tell you much more than that at the moment, because the negotiations with Rome are so sensitive - and the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales, who distrust Anglican traditionalists, are quite capable of throwing a spanner in the works.
It's shaming to have to admit that the bishops of my own Church are the chief obstacle to a significant move of Anglo-Catholic clergy and lay people into full communion with the Holy See - but that's the way it was last time, in the early 1990s, and it's still the case today.
Fortunately, Pope Benedict XVI is more open to experiment than Pope John Paul II. He is taking a close interest in the progress of the rebel Traditional Anglican Communion towards reunion - a process which is under the control of the Congregration for the Doctrine of the Faith, not the Vatican's woolly-minded ecumenists.
I can't betray confidences, but my advice is: look at the new church structures, such as Old Rite parishes, that the Pope is already encouraging, and ask yourself how those models might be adapted for the use of former Anglicans.
But I've already said too much...
(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.telegraph.co.uk ...
You sir seemed to be missing the point. If you find this type of post so offensive, why then do you even bother, save to insult and try to mind read?
Are you afraid to let NYer answer for herself?
And by the way, oh sage, it is not "mind-reading" to announce how one responds to another's post, nor to ask what the intent really is, which is what I am doing. I have not imputed motives, I have asked. I still await the answer. Either you can wait along with us, or you can continue making witless objections, but what you should not do is to expect another rejoinder from me.
This shouldn't be viewed merely as an antecdote about switching church affiliation. This is about rejecting the sin that the Anglican Communion appears to have embraced and desires to institutionalize. It is cause for celebration that not all members of that church are willing to follow blithely into perdition. We should appreciate the enormous difficulty these decisions are for the members of that church and be grateful that, at least in some instances, modernism is being repudiated, and traditional morality is being affirmed. That is what is a triumph. Deo gratias.
Anti-Catholicism, Hypocrisy and Double Standards
Hauled Aboard the Ark
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part IV: Crucifix and Altar
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part V: The Catholics and the Pope
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality
His Open Arms Welcomed Me
Catholic Conversion Stories & Resources
My Personal Conversion Story
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
Catholics Come Home
My Journey of Faith
LOGIC AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF PROTESTANTISM
"What is Truth?" An Examination of Sola Scriptura
"Have you not read?" The Authority behind Biblical Interpretation
The Crisis of Authority in the Reformation
Our Journey Home
Our Lady’s Gentle Call to Peace
A story of conversion at the Lamb of God Shrine
Who is Mary of Nazareth?
Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity
Why I'm Catholic
A Convert's Response to Friends
My Story
Courage to Be Catholic
Finally Catholic! My Conversion to the Catholic Church
Southern Baptist Pastor Leaves Everything for the Eucharist
The Short Version (the Way International convert)
Shower of Roses-- An Independent, Fundamental Baptist Becomes Catholic Through Mary's Intecession
Confessions of a Catholic Convert
Alex Jones: the evangelical who became a Catholic deacon
A TRIUMPH AND A TRAGEDY
Women's Ordination Was Non-Negotiable
Catholic Mariology, Authority, and Various Other Qualms of Protestants Considering Conversion
Also see:
Sheep That Go Astray
Pope Benedict Goes to Washington Ecumenical Meeting at St. Joseph's Church, New York
Orthodox and Catholic Churches are allies, (Orthodox) Bishop Hilarion says
How to become a Catholic
The deal with either Protestants converting or in a few cases atheists or agnostics converting. That is because I think that Protestantism is a serious theological error that since its invention by Luther endangered countless number of souls, and I want to encourage more Protestants to convert.
I do not have the same attitude toward the Orthodox Church, and in fact if one for some reason has a grudge toward the Catholic Church I would advise him to join the Orthodox Church. That is because the sacramental means of salvation are available, in the Orthodox Church, and our theological differences with them do not put souls in peril.
I thought we have a religion forum going; why is it offensive for you what I or NYer do? We are proud of our faith and want you to come to it, too.
Why do you take so much pleasure in your persistent endeavor? Has any of these stories reported on even a single new conversion to Christ? Or do you consider that nonCatholics are heathens and only Catholics can be saved?
16 posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 9:03:46 AM by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: sitetest
Thanks for providing those links. It is my experience--and perhaps yours as well--that confident assertions by those who claim something is not only common knowledge but also official policy often turn out to be mistaken, to one degree or another.
As to my desire to let NYer speak for herself:
1. You persist in speaking for her.
2. You wrote, "...if you're looking for the reason why Catholics rejoice when people come into full communion with the Catholic Church...." That is only a part of the information I seek. My original question, which you in your overeager intervention have ignored completely and which she alone can answer, was not why she rejoiced but rather why she persists in publicly gloating in a manner that can only be taken as confrontational and antagonistic. You are assuming her motives
24 posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 10:25:36 AM by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: sitetest
You persist in missing my point profoundly, despite your arrogance, or more likely because of it. My point, dear one, is that NYer delights in repeatedly posting these articles (even without comment) in a public nonCatholic forum, with no apparent thought--or worse, care--for how that looks to nonCatholics, or how offensive that is to them.
But I am through with you now: it was not you, after all, to whom my inquiry was directed, as I have pointed out--yes--repeatedly. Let her answer.
34 posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 12:43:12 PM by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: NYer
Thank you for your reply, NYer. While awaiting it, sitetest and I had a slightly vigorous discussion of it in which I laid out my concerns--I am afraid my latest post appears twice (#33 & #34) due to FR's slowness just then. May I say by way of introduction that my heat in replying to him would not have appeared (at the beginning anyway!) in my inquiry to you.
First, has it occurred to you that your frequent posts of this nature might offend nonCatholics? That posting them so repeatedly cannot help but suggest your triumphal attitude? Is that really the message you want to send?
Second, regarding conversions: I was not referring to Jewish converts, as in the example you recall. Rather, I was asking if your rejoicing was due to your belief that new converts result from these Protestants becoming Catholics. Anytime someone moves from the damned column to the saved, we can all rejoice rightfully. Is that your opinion--that only Catholics can be saved? You respond that is neither your nor the Church's position (sitetest might take exception there). But that is certainly the impression you leave by these victorious postings. Each time, it's as though you're holding aloft another Protestant scalp. How would you react if Protestants responded in kind?
It might help here to describe mission experiences I have had which inform my inquiry. For example, I have gone door-to-door seeking specifically the unchurched (not to mention the unsaved) to visit our church. When we encounter people who are already churched, we do not attempt to pry them from their present church--God's kingdom would have no net gain. That includes those who attend other Protestant as well as Catholic churches. In our view, God's kingdom would not only have no net gain, but it would suffer loss from such divisive acts.
As is implicit in my original inquiry, I have been noticing these posts of yours for some time now--perhaps a dozen or more. I was offended by the first, and by each since. I refrained from comment until now because I did not know whether you would persist, or whether something or someOne might intervene. Obviously, you do persist unabashed. For your sake, then, I felt a duty to inform you of my reaction. I may be alone, though I doubt it. But you should know, in order to have the opportunity to take that into account in considering how best you should fulfill your Lord's call.
37 posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 1:20:06 PM by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Jaded
I've already had two genius spiritual giants on this thread attempt to dissuade me from getting an answer to a perfectly straightforward, morally upright question put in a courteous fashion. Three's a crowd. Indeed, I could have sent her a private email--in fact, I considered it beforehand. As you see, where I come from, one actually considers the implications prior to speaking or writing (Eph.4:29).
Are you afraid to let NYer answer for herself?
And by the way, oh sage, it is not "mind-reading" to announce how one responds to another's post, nor to ask what the intent really is, which is what I am doing. I have not imputed motives, I have asked. I still await the answer. Either you can wait along with us, or you can continue making witless objections, but what you should not do is to expect another rejoinder from me. [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
Read your replies! NYer answered you more than once and you actually replied, or did you forget in so short a time? Why do you find it needful to insult people? Does that make your point any better? Perhaps before posting anymore on the religion threads you should read the guidelines.
You believe that posting stories of Protestants converting to Catholicism will encourage other Protestants to do so as well. Out of love for them and a concern for their souls, you so post. Do I have that right?
If I may respond briefly, let me observe:
1. These posts are counterproductive to your intent. They are implicitly offensive. Have you considered whether this approach is the best way? When has insulting someone or his beliefs ever won a soul? Do you have any objective evidence that your approach has succeeded, even in a single instance? Where is the testimonial from even one person who corresponded with you after the fact to thank you for leading him to the light through this method? After such extensive efforts by you, certainly one should expect a harvest of some sort by now.
2. Does it not give you even a moment's pause to be so smug that you can make such sweeping criticism of Protestant Christianity? Are none of us Protestants capable of salvation apart from Catholicism--have you damned all of us to hell? On what basis? Don't you owe us at least a thorough explanation, or must we merely succumb to the force of your persistence?
3. You and NYer seem to have given no thought at all to the impact your demeaning posts must surely have. Why is it offensive to me, and other Protestants, to be told again and again by you in the Religion Forum that we are flat wrong and are going to hell? You can actually ask such a question? Why didn't you ask that question before making all these derisive posts? If there is no other way to make the point, perhaps mentally reversing our roles will help: What would your reaction be to a seemingly unending series of Protestant posts accusing the Catholic Church and its adherents of grave error?
LOL That occurs just about every single minute here. We have a Petronski. ROFL
Yes, you outlined my position correctly.
1. I have several people complimenting me on these threads, and informing me that they were helpful to them in their own conversion. Others simply appreciate a chance to better understand Catholicism. Also, my wife is a recent convert from Protestantism and she accused me of not doing enough to show the Protestants their errors.
2. I do not make a sweeping criticism. Much in Protestantism has retained the Catholic Orthodox core and is therefore very good. The love for the Holy Scripture, common among the Protestants is also a very positive example. The Catholic Chruch teaches that the Protestants can be sanctified, and therefore saved, through their love for the Scripture and their good works. Further, I only address specific problems in Protestantism that do endanger salvation of souls: the false and counterscriptural doctrines of Bible Alone, and Faith Alone, their anti-clericalism and their anti-Catholicism.
3. I do not go on Protestant threads to disrupt discussions there. My style of posting is generally calm and academic, and is based on the scripture or, if a Catholic doctrine is discussed, on Catholic catechetical material, so that I can properly explain it. I encouraged the Protestant Freepers to respond in kind and post Protestant conversion stories, but no one has taken up the challenge. Those Protestant conversion stories that I have seen tend to come from people poorly versed in Catholicism or tired of the considerable burden of obedience that the Church asks for. I have not seen a single conversion story where someone was willing to pay a price of any kind with his conversion, while I have seen numerous instances of ministers losing their entire careers, and Anglican priests losing their vocation, in order to become Catholic. These are not conversions made of ignorance or laziness. At least such are the stories I selected.
“My style of posting is generally calm and academic,...”
This is because you have, at base, an Orthodox phronema! :)
First, has it occurred to you that your frequent posts of this nature might offend nonCatholics?
Given the high volume of posts I make to the forum, I have not kept track of those on the topic of conversion. There is another freeper who maintains a Conversion Ping List. That said, you are the first person to indicate a sense of offense at posts regarding converts. This is an open forum with threads that span every range of views - the intent being, discussion. You and I have the option of participating in the discussion ... or not.
Anytime someone moves from the damned column to the saved, we can all rejoice rightfully. Is that your opinion--that only Catholics can be saved? You respond that is neither your nor the Church's position (sitetest might take exception there). But that is certainly the impression you leave by these victorious postings.
How do I leave that impression when I post a thread on an open forum and only ping Catholics? Am I happy when a protestant theologian like Dr. Scott Hahn reads himself into the Catholic Church? Of course! He did not cross the Tiber as the result of proselytization but through the Holy Spirit.
Each time, it's as though you're holding aloft another Protestant scalp. How would you react if Protestants responded in kind?
God calls us to the faith; not me! I am more than happy to read threads of Catholic theologians who have read their way into a Protestant denomination. Post some and ping me, okay?
It might help here to describe mission experiences I have had which inform my inquiry. For example, I have gone door-to-door seeking specifically the unchurched (not to mention the unsaved) to visit our church. When we encounter people who are already churched, we do not attempt to pry them from their present church--God's kingdom would have no net gain. That includes those who attend other Protestant as well as Catholic churches. In our view, God's kingdom would not only have no net gain, but it would suffer loss from such divisive acts.
Missionary activity is very important! God bless you in this work. In which country do you serve as a missionary and to what denomination do you belong?
I have been noticing these posts of yours for some time now--perhaps a dozen or more. I was offended by the first, and by each since.
I'm sorry you feel offended. Is there something in the content of these conversions that truly bothers you? And why? If a man is suffering from a dreadful disease and finds a doctor with the cure, should he refuse treatment?
For your sake, then, I felt a duty to inform you of my reaction. I may be alone, though I doubt it. But you should know, in order to have the opportunity to take that into account in considering how best you should fulfill your Lord's call.
Dear friend, missionary activity began with the Apostles - the witnesses to the life of our beloved Lord, Jesus Christ. The first christians were Catholics who upheld Christ's instructions to go out and preach the "good news". Is there to be only one Church or many? According to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many. For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many.
Would you like to be added to the Catholic Ping List?
If that isn't "sweeping criticism," I am much mistaken. I am glad, therefore, to have your more recent explanation. I am also glad to see your acknowledgment that Protestants can be saved. That topic has been controversial in this thread--there is by no means a consensus among the Catholics herein.
You still fail to appreciate that, regardless of your lack of interjection into Protestant threads, just how offensive your posts are. Both you and NYer seem never to have given it the least thought, much less inventing with the Holy Spirit's aid some winsome way to make your point. The Gospel cannot avoid being a stumbling block for some, but surely there is no need to roll additional boulders around it.
You have given me a fair hearing, so I will subside now, trusting in the Holy Spirit to lead you as a Christian into all truth. I hope you will in the future be more inclined to let Him do the same for we Protestants.
NYer wrote not one word. She simply posted an article from a newspaper. Why go after her?
If you cannot see that your unending presentation of these stories is inherently offensive for their innate derogation of Protestantism, then I am inadequate to convince you. I shall commend you then to the Holy Spirit, who is able. Best wishes.
See my post #58.
To be a missionary requires the ability to defend one's position. This is called Apologetics, and entails a very clear understainding of both Scripture, Tradition and faith. You have objections to my posts but are unable to post a clear explanation as to why they bother you. I asked you a simple question: to which denomination do you belong and you have still not replied.
My friend, our Lord was very clear in His teachings, ALL of which have been preserved by the Church He founded - the Catholic Church. What is your argument against this Church?
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