messierhunter said:
Again, awfully sure of ourselves aren’t we? Thessalonians does not give a time frame for the rapture except that it occurs at the coming of the Lord, and to me that says post-trib, christ’s return after the trib. I wish I was wrong, I wish I didn’t believe that Christians would have to endure the tribulation, but unfortunately I’ve looked at the verses and I can’t in all honesty say that I see a pre-trib rapture being described.
messierhunter can I ask you who do you think the 24 elders are in Revelation?
The 24 elders are seated on thrones, wearing white garments and golden crowns. These were promised to the Church at the Judgment Seat of Christ, which is at the coming of Christ at the rapture (2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4).
The 24 elders sing a song of redemption even though they sing it in the third person, which is possible (Exodus 115:13,16-17) to sing a song about yourself in the third person.
The 24 elders focus in their interpretation to John the white-robed multitude and the slain Lamb, Jesus Christ. Redeemed men would better understand the redemptive work of Christ than angels.
The 24 elders are distinguished from “all the angels” (Revelation 7:11).
The 24 elders are only seen in Revelation after John goes to heaven (Revelation 4:1-2) and are absent in the visions of Isaiah and Ezekiel of heaven.
The 24 elders are very different from angels.
The 24 elders can’t be angels for the Church will even judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3).
It is clear that the 24 elders proves that the Church is in heaven before the Tribulation. This means that the rapture has to be before the Tribulation for we see the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) in heaven before the Tribulation starts in Revelation 6.
Further proof of the Church not being in the Tribulation is that the Tribulation is a “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7). The seventy weeks prophecy is for Israel (Daniel 9:24) and that includes the seventieth week, which is the Tribulation.
We see that Israel not the Church will endure the Tribulation. The Church is promised present-day Tribulation (Revelation 2:10) but Israel is warned of the Tribulation (Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21).
There is no warning for the Church about the Tribulation. The Church was promised that they “will judge the world” (1 Corinthians 6:2) and “will judge angels” (1 Corinthians 6:3).
Revelation 20:4 says, “Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.” This is probably referring to the 24 elders so if the Church was promised that they will judge the world and angels and if Revelation 20:4 confirms this through the 24 elders then the Church then this proves that the 24 elders represent the Church.
The 24 elders points to the belief that the rapture is before the Tribulation.
That interpretation requires that you invent a pre-trib rapture.
A more biblical interpretation is that the image of the 24 elders represents the complete Church before the throne of God: 12 from the Old Testament era and 12 from the New. Just as we see the city of God in Revelation 21 being represented by 12 foundations stones (New Testament saints) and 12 gates (Old Testament saints)
The 24 elders symbolically represents the great assembly of God’s people identified in Hebrews 12:22, "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,".