Moderator: “Paul, there is a passage of Scripture, actually the section we are talking about tonight, that has become so important, so prominent, that many major church doctrines are built upon it. So, I thought we should take a very close look at this portion, and we’re especially grateful that you could join us tonight to help our understanding of what you said.”Point of order, Mr. Biased Moderator. Major church doctrines are not built solely on a single passage of Scripture.
Paul: “Wow, that was hard to follow, but you are absolutely correct. From this shoddy piece of translation work, and I do mean shoddy in the very meanest sense, they have taken out the word for ‘AND,’ then inserted the word ‘IS,’ in order to make a false statement appear to be a direct quote from the Bible. Also, look at the Greek. There are no Greek words that mean PRESENT or ABSENT in 2 Cor 5:6-9, even though these English words are found five times in this short section. I used two very technically-specific words in writing this epistle, just so there would be no confusion as to what I meant. Actually, the Holy Spirit chose the two words, and I wrote them down.”Moderator: “Paul, what are those two words?”
Paul: “Endemeo and ekdemeo. For someone to change my words, while arbitrarily adding and deleting whatever they want amounts to a perversion of Biblical testimony, inserted to give support to a false idea – in this case the ridiculous idea that a man can be separated from and exist apart from the organized substance (soil) that makes him what he is, a human being.”
Au contra ire, Mr. Pseudo Paul. The real Paul said twice concerning being caught up to the Third Heaven that he couldn't tell whether he was in the body or out of the body. For the umpteenth time, if it were actually impossible for a man to exist apart from his body, can you please explain to me how, the real Paul as an honest man, not even to mention an Apostle, could say that he couldn't tell whether he was in the body or out of the body?
Second, Mr. Pseudo Paul, your assertion that the word "and" has been taken out of the text and substituted with "is" is just silly.
5:8 [ Greek Font Size: – / + | Toggle Font ] [ View in: BYZ / TR | Side-by-side | Greek Lexical Parser ] We are confident (5719) , I say, and * * willing (5719) rather to be absent (5658) from the body, and to be present (5658) with the Lord. qarroumen (5719) de kai eudokoumen (5719) mallon ekdhmhsai (5658) ek tou swmatov kai endhmhsai (5658) prov ton kurion.
- 5:8 [ Greek Font Size: / | ] [ View in: BYZ / TR | | ]
- We are confident (5719) , I say, and * * willing (5719) rather to be absent (5658) from the body, and to be present (5658) with the Lord.
qarroumen (5719) de kai eudokoumen (5719) mallon ekdhmhsai (5658) ek tou swmatov kai endhmhsai (5658) prov ton kurion.
Third, Mr. Psuedo Paul, your assertion that there are no Greek words that mean PRESENT or ABSENT in 2 Cor 5:6-9" as if the words specifically exclude such signification is downright misleading.
5:6 "home" (5723)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Powered by LightSpeed Technology © 2001-2008, StudyLight.org |
----------------
5:6 "absent" (5719)
Strong's Number: 1553 eÍkdhmeÑw Original Word Word Origin eÍkdhmeÑw from a compound of (1537) and (1218) Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling Ekdemeo ek-day-meh'-o Parts of Speech TDNT Verb 2:63,149 Definition to go abroad emigrate, depart to be or live abroad Translated Words KJV (3) - be absent, 3; NAS (3) - absent, 3;
------------------------------
5:8 "absent" (5658)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
5:8 "present" (5658)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Powered by LightSpeed Technology © 2001-2008, StudyLight.org |
The words, even if taken in their corporate sense do not exclude the meaning of "home", "present" or "absent". Try these on for size:
2 Corinthians 5:6
- At home in the body (endhmountev en twi swmati).
- Rare verb endhmew from endhmov (one among his own people as opposed to ekdhmov, one away from home). Both ekdhmew (more common in the old Greek) and endhmew occur in the papyri with the contrast made by Paul here.
2 Corinthians 5:4
- Not for that we would be unclothed (ep' wi ou telomen ekdusastai).
- Rather, "For that (ep' wi) we do not wish to put off the clothing, but to put it on" (all' ependusastai). The transposition of the negative ou weakens the sense. Paul does not wish to be a mere disembodied spirit without his spiritual garment.
- That what is mortal may be swallowed up of life (ina katapothi to tnhton upo thv zwhv).
- "Only what is mortal perishes; the personality, consisting of soul and body, survives," (Plummer). See on 1:22 for "the earnest of the spirit."
2 Corinthians 5:3
- Being clothed (endusamenoi).
- First aorist middle participle, having put on the garment.
- Naked (gumnoi).
- That is, disembodied spirits, "like the souls in Sheol, without form, and void of all power of activity" (Plummer).
The New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3613 oiÎkhth/rion
Original Word Word Origin oiÎkhth/rion from a presumed derivative of (3611) (equivalent to (3612)) Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling Oiketerion oy-kay-tay'-ree-on 
Parts of Speech TDNT Noun Neuter 5:155,674 Definition
- a dwelling place, habitation
- of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit
Translated Words KJV (2) - habitation, 1; house, 1; NAS (2) - abode, 1; dwelling, 1;
Verse Count KJV NAS
2 Corinthians 1 Jude 1
2 Corinthians 1 Jude 1
2 Corinthians 5:2
- To be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven (to oikhthrion hmwn to ex ouranou ependusastai).
- First aorist middle infinitive of late verb ependuw, double compound (ep, en) to put upon oneself. Cf. ependuthv for a fisherman's linen blouse or upper garment (John 21:7). Oikhthrion is old word used here of the spiritual body as the abode of the spirit. It is a mixed metaphor (putting on as garment the dwelling-place).
Further, that this passage has nothing at all to do about death is plainly falsified by the real Paul's statement "that mortality might be swallowed up of life".
There was no reason to deny it. I told them that the glorious treasure I dispensed had been placed in an earthen vessel. Earthen vessels were cheap, common, least valued, used with little care, and bound to break sooner or later. This was the metaphor I used to describe my physical being. I told them why God had seen fit to do it this way - ‘That the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.’ 2 Cor 4:7.”
...Even though the outer man was wasting away, suffering wear and tear, the inward man was being renewed day by day (4:16). These designations of outer and inner man apply only to a believer. He alone has an inner, renewable life.
You need to clean up your possessive, dualistic language, Mr Pseudo Paul. Where are you getting this "inner life" stuff that you are injecting into your equation, "body plus breath of life equals a living soul"?
And how does the real Paul's language "in his body" in verse 10 of the same chapter fit into your equation?
- 5:10 [ Greek Font Size: / | ] [ View in: BYZ / TR | | ]
- For we must (5748) all appear (5683) before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive (5672) the things done in his body, according to that he hath done (5656) , whether it be good or bad.
touv gar pantav hmav fanerwqhnai (5683) dei (5904) emprosqen tou bhmatov tou Xristou, ina komishtai (5672) ekastov ta dia tou swmatov prov a epracen, eite agaqon eite faulon.
The bottom line is nothing in our position that is altered in the least by allowance for both meanings of the word "body" as used in the passage, the corporate sense and the individual sense. However, your position CANNOT allow for what plainly is allowed in the passage, as if the two senses are somehow mutually exclusive, a supposition without any supporting evidence. Further, nothing in the passage even comes close to supporting your view that when the body is decomposed, that there is no more of the man till the resurrection. Your interpretation of this passage in this imaginary dialog simply begs the question by assuming as true from the very outset the very thing you are supposed to be proving.
If we have bodies ‘eternal in the heavens’ to replace the one destroyed by death, then the resurrection of this present body is undesirable.
The resurrection of this present body may be undesireable to you, but Paul plainly taught, as I proved to you earlier in this thread, that life will be given to our mortal bodies, the same body that is sown as a seed will rise, changed, immortal and incorruptible, just as the same body of Jesus that was placed in the tomb was the body that was raised, except immortal and incorruptible.
Cordially,