Posted on 05/30/2008 8:23:05 AM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
I seriously recommend this book as a thought provoking examination of one’s assumed theology. http://tinyurl.com/3s2m58
For example, I see NO flaws in this article's argument.
None of it is essential for salvation. Salvation by...
Sola Scriptura: The Scripture Alone is the Standard
Soli Deo Gloria! For the Glory of God Alone
Solo Christo! By Christ's Work Alone are We Saved
Sola Gratia: Salvation by Grace Alone
Sola Fide: Justification by Faith Alone
I claim Christ and I actually study quite assiduously the subject of His return. I also believe firmly in letting Scripture give its own testimony.
Since this also seems to be an important matter to you, may I humbly propose to you that Dr. Kim is missing a very important piece to the jigsaw puzzle of the eschatological time table? That missing piece is that there are actually three ages, not two as the article states. Between this present age and the actual return of Christ there is the kingdom of God on this earth, with Christ ruling from His throne in heaven, the earth being His footstool. During this period of time in which God is governing there will be no wars, nor rumors of wars, nor famine nor earthquakes, etc. etc. But towards the end of the kingdom period, when God removes the kingdom restraints and great tribulation comes (there is no definite article in the Greek, then the angels will go forth to the harvest, gathering the wheat into the barn and bundling the weeds for burning. At that point is when I belive Christ will return in His Parousia.
A common mistake is to translate Parousia as a “coming.” This is flat out wrong, It is a technical term which means a personal presence when one is present because of who he is and in light of the office or service which he is to perform. He needs to come, or return, in order to be personally present upon this earth for a thousand years (the meaning of millenium - 1000 years).
I am simply putting forth another possible alternative viewpoint which I believe is thoroughly discussed and set forth in God’s word - if we look and actually see for ourselves. (I prefer to see for myself and not simply accept what someone else tells me about what God’s word says).
I believe the article contains several contradictions which need to be discussed. Let me know if it should please you to examine them. By examine, I mean thoroughly examine, but with an open mind and an open heart.
Follow Hal and Darby if you choose, but you come across as arrogant to flatly state that Lindsey is correct.
I see it as an insult to the work of Christ to insist on a division between His chosen Jews and His chosen Gentiles.
Hal “Late Great” Lindsey goes so far as to label Amillennialism as “anti-Semitic,” demonic and heretical.Hal Lindsey is correct.
Boy, this brings out the best in people, doesn't it?
I have been studying it, in depth, for 33 years, and I am, and continue to be, “pre-trib” and “pre-mil.”
Have ye studied the arguments that oppose your own view? I’ve studied both sides, having been vigorously worked on by a dispy pastor-friend for several years. Studying pro-dispensationalism works did as much to convince me of its errors than did opposing works. Wayne Grudem’s “Systematic Theology” and Kim Riddlerbarger’s “A Case for Amillennialism” http://tinyurl.com/3s2m58 are both solid works that - IMO - expose the lack of Biblical foundation for dispensationalism.
There ceratinly is a distinction between the church and Israel.
I am weary of the amillennialism that I see. I do hope that it does not make any sort of a “comeback”. It is an allegorical manner of looking at the Scriptures.
Hey, I’ve got an idea!!! Why doesn’t an amillennialist write a novel called “The Amillennial Code”?
Then they can explain in allegorical form how “forever” doesn’t mean “forever”, how “Israel” means the “church”, and how using the term “one thousand years” doesn’t mean “the millennium”.
One of the worst things that the Reformers did was to codify some of their writings into a form that has been virtually worshipped in the past four hundred years. The reverence for the Reformed writings is as idolatrous as the reverence shown for the “early church fathers”. It is as idolatrous as when the Catholics canonized the writings of Aquinas.
On top of that, one of the arguments for the Amil position is this: “Well, it it was good enough for the Reformed theologians, it’s good enough for me!” That is as bad as saying that if it was good enough for Tetzel, it should be good enough for Luther.
I sense that as the time gets closer and closer to the Tribulation, that the misinformation of Amillennialism will get worse and worse.
What event will ever convince the Amillennialists to drop their delusions? It has NOT been the rebirth of Israel, which by the way was prophesied exactly as it happened: that God would regather the Jews to Israel in a state of unbelief (Ez 36:24-25). It has NOT been the explosion of Jewish people coming to Christ. It has NOT been the rise of the global system of the Antichrist. It has NOT been the near completion of the work of the Great Commission.
So, what will convince them? The confirmation of the covenant (Dan ch.9) of the antichrist? The rebuilding of the temple? The abomination of desolation? A war that wipes out one third of the earth’s population?
Sorry for the rant, but my own pastor has just gone Amil, and he’s taking most of my local church with him.
I don’t feel the freedom to speak at church, so you all here have to get the results of my recent thoughts on this issue.
I hope that those who believe in the premill position will benefit from the Bible passages I’ve posted here.
Oh. My pastor did tell me that his views on this were taken from the writings of the Reformed theologians, then he told that he doesn’t know the book of Revelation very well. Then it all made sense to me.
My own mistrust of “the Reformers” came because of their soteriological teachings: they preach eternal security, but they really don’t believe it, since they base their security on the quality of their own perseverance than trusting in the finished work of Christ.
Yes, yes, yes, this assertion will be denied and I will be labeled as a liar for saying this, but the common outworking of the “perseverance of the saints” is a doubtful introspection of one’s life of ebedience or disobedience. How much sin can one have in their life in order to safely say that they are persevering? How amny good works are sufficient to guarantee that one’s salvation is secure?
These and many other issues I found to be well addressed in two of my favorite books: “Once Saved Alwasy Saved” by RT Kendall, and “The Reign of the Servant Kings” by Joseph Dillow.
*******
Jeremiah 31:35-37
“Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.”
Romans 11
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
It’s clear that you care not for anything that rocks the boat of your dispy thoughts. I care not to argue with you. I will tell you this: your generalization that Amillennilialists follow the Reformers without thought is specious and insulting.
Your attempt at ridicule (Hey, I’ve got an idea!!! Why doesn’t an amillennialist write a novel called “The Amillennial Code”?) is sophomoric.
IF you are willing to consider that what you’ve been taught might have error - which every student of Scripture ought to be on those things that not explicit - I encourage you to read the book “A Case for Amillennianalism” by Kim Riddlebarger.
For rather than swallow what one has been taught in church (which I did for a season), study the Scriptures and read rational books for both sides of the issue (which I’ve done) and seek Truth instead of resting with arrogance in your position.
Just a suggestion. You may not be convinced to change your mind, but I do hope you are less rash with your words.
You just posted something with which I mostly agree, so it's either gotta be the Second Coming, or h--l freezing over.
LOL!
Let this be evidence that I do not exist solely to irritate RCs.
Think not that I have come to bring peace, but a sword.
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense.
Were you offended by my bold declaration? Good !
I was taught amillennialism for many years, and I was never convinced of it.
After I started to study the Bible for myself, I am ever more convinced that it is a holdover from the allegorical scheme of biblical interpretation.
That is truly the crux of my disagreement: in that the Amil position rests on an allegorical interpretation, not a straightforward reading of the Scriptures.
Please forgive my harsh language, but I do feel the need to vent here, since I really can’t speak about my objections in my local church.
I guess that is a benefit to a virtual room on the net.
Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense.
That would be the gospel, not some millennial theory not yet 2 centuries old.
Thank you for the cordial reply. This is a dispute within the brotherhood - although A.W. Pink strained it a bit late in life, kinda like an ex-smoker on crusade :-)
Yes, the allegorical argument is a legitimate concern. Every theological system has its weak points. I can’t swallow dispensationalism’s “great parenthesis” and re-establishment of the Jewish religion as the culmination of God’s redemptive plan. What use is our High Priest (in the epistle to the Hebrews) if the Jews return to the “types and shadows” - after the veil was torn, etc.
My pastor is a dispy and last year when he was teaching through Revelation on Wed nights, I could barely sit still - his insistence that the church is raptured between Rev chap 3 and chap 4 is based solely on the lack of the use of the term “church” in chap 4 and following. Gosh, Batman - saints are mentioned on Earth in several places, and where His people are - there is His church.
I understand the tension you have within your church. I’ve discussed this with my pastor - he’s not a bigot about dispensationalism and is less likely to state it as fact from the pulpit.
Let us exhort one another in the Lord Jesus, knowing the secret things belong to God.
I pray the Lord will lead you to exactly where you need to be. If that means staying where you are, then may God give you the strength, grace, and mercy to stand firm. If it means to move on, God's speed to you brother as you shake off the dust and may God use you effectively to minister to His saints in your new Church family.
Sometimes the fishtank just needs some new fish in it to make it's beauty seen, sometimes the fishtank needs to be moved to another house for others to see its beauty.
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