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To: MEGoody; CTrent1564; dangus; big'ol_freeper; NYer
So you're saying these Catholics didn't have a clue what their church taught?

You're right. I think you will see a number of us Catholic FReepers agreeing with you that the state of catechesis within the Church is abysmal.

But it's more fundamental than that (at least IMHO). This is a phenomenon of liberal modernism, which was basically started with the Great Western Schism (or, as some call it, the Protestant Reformation). Liberalism basically states that I can do as I want to do. Reformation theology (through the 5 solas) essentially says the same thing, but on a theological basis. (Please note: I am talking about liberalism in the classic sense, not the socialism embraced by modern "liberals") -- with the invasion of that idea into the modern culture, in large part, through the mass media, there is no doubt on my part that there would be a huge number of nominal Catholics who received only a basic catechesis (if that) would find their modernistic, liberal ideals better captured in the various schismatic sects (i.e., Protestant, Restorationist, Evangelical, Charismatic denominatons).

But is it a movement of the Holy Spirit? Only if modernism and liberalism are movements of the Holy Spirit.

As a point of interest, you all may be interested in reading Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae, by Leo XIII. It sort of speaks to this issue, particularly as it appears in this hemisphere.

79 posted on 05/30/2008 3:36:31 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley
“You're right. I think you will see a number of us Catholic FReepers agreeing with you that the state of catechesis within the Church is abysmal.”( Markomalley)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Please read post #85.

89 posted on 05/30/2008 5:54:54 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: markomalley
Liberalism basically states that I can do as I want to do.

I disagree. Classical Liberalism states that we should be largely free from the confines of arbitrary and unjust human institutions, to do what we want guided by our own consciences. This is the official point of view of Free Republic (as I understand it) and also the point of view of GOD when he warned the Israelites not to appoint a king to rule them.

91 posted on 05/30/2008 6:04:45 AM PDT by DManA
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To: markomalley; MEGoody; CTrent1564; big'ol_freeper; NYer
So you're saying these Catholics didn't have a clue what their church taught? That indicates this has less to do with the Protestants aggressively proselytizing and more to do with the individual not being engaged in the Catholic church in the first place.

I would agree very strongly with your statement, as edited; I would only say that it's not an alternative explanation to aggressive prosetylization, but is fully complementary with it. Further, I'd say there's a frequent attitude among many Protestants that attacks on Christianity are fine, so long as the Catholic Church is the focal point (case in point: The Da Vinci Code).

Much of the agressive evangelization has a measure of success precisely because Catholic instruction is so poor. Not only do former Catholics accept Protestants' slanders against the church because they are too ignorant to know the truth ("Hey, I guess REAL Catholics DO worship Mary... my aunt had statues in her home, and was always kneeling before the statue of Mary at church!"), but Protestants also even miseducate Catholics. For instance:

Protestants so often insist that Catholics believe works are neccesary to attain salvation, that many Catholics are starting to believe it. That's one reason I recommend "the Soul of the Apostolate" as a book for spiritual guidance, because it exposes so completely the dreadful consequences of trying to work your way into Heaven.

You will NOT hear Catholics state "sola fidelis" for two reasons:

1. What the Catholic Church criticized Luther's movement for is something now disavowed by most Lutheran groups: that sin, even unrepentant sinhas no consequences, so long as the sinner has faith in God.

2. That faith is a product of grace, and instruments of receiving grace, such as the sacraments, are effective.

But no insignificant number of Catholics actually believe it when Protestants tell them the Catholic Church believes that works are necessary for salvation, in spite of the bible, and authors such as St. Therese Lisieux, St. Maximilian Kolbe, Jean-Beaptist Chautard, St. Francis, etc.

100 posted on 05/30/2008 8:23:36 AM PDT by dangus
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To: markomalley

The Protestant Reformation said you can do what you want to do? I heartily disagree with that characterization. The Protestant Reformation was about getting back to God’s truth. While you might believe that they were wrong with what they believe to be truth, that’s not the same as ‘you can do what you want’.


107 posted on 05/30/2008 1:42:54 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall cause you to vote against the Democrats.)
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