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To: NYer
To the whole issue of transubstantiation, I ask:

Did Jesus say "this has become my body", "this has become my blood?" How did the "trans" get injected into Scripture? He simply said "is."

Is the wafer ever not his body (before the prayer of the priest)? Is Jesus not the same forever. How then can he become what he previously was not? Or how can something that is not God become something that is God?

If the wafer is God in Jesus Christ, and if God never changes, does the wafer again become not God at some point?

Does digestion somehow dissolve the Godness of the wafer? Since, as Catholics say, the Body, Soul, and Divinity is contained whole in the wafer, and that His humanity (body) can not be separated from his Godhood, does the wafer just pass through our systems as God? Does God then become fecal matter in the toilet, to be worshiped and adored? (Better not flush!)

What happens to the leftovers from the Eucharist? Do those pieces not eaten rot and are eventually thrown away? How could God be treated thus?

Is saying "I am the bread which comes down from Heaven" the same as saying, "bread is me?" Does the first statement in some way explain the latter?

230 posted on 05/26/2008 10:31:31 AM PDT by fwdude
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To: fwdude
These are wonderful questions, as far as I'm concerned.

Did Jesus say "this has become my body", "this has become my blood?" How did the "trans" get injected into Scripture? He simply said "is."Well, even the Evangelists call it bread (and the cup) first, and then HE says... whatever He actually said. So I think most people would say there was some change, even if only a change in "signification".

As to the something that wasn't God becoming God, isn't that the miracle part?

The God changing part is excellent. I'd say it's tied up with the mind-boggling aspects of the Incarnation.

The next questions are pretty much examined in the Summa. I'm not sure "contained" is right. Is my "Dawgness" "contained" in my body? I don't know.

The humanity of Christ is not identified with his body. Anymore than MY humanity, such as it is, is to be identified with mine. I am more than my body, and Christ's humanity is more than is body. Wouldn't that hve to be right? I can see problems on the horizon, but let's move slowly.

The BIG problem is that moderns don't "get" "substance". WE think in terms of conservation of matter and such and we see a continuity, indeed there IS a continuity, between bread in my hand and subsequent bolus turcking on through the GI tract. But the "substantial" approach is that isn't bread any more. And the "transsubstantial" approach is That whatever it is doesn't have the accidents of bread any more so the local identification of it with Christ is no more. Something like that, anyway

Similarly with rotted bread or vinegared wine. And besides the bread and wine are consumed before they rot, and if a calamity happens great hootin' and hollerin' and stuff is carried out. One old lady bearing a chalice of the Precious Blood took a header off the altar steps. Clean towles, clean bucket, many many rinsings involving pouring the rinsed material not into drainpipes but onto clean grass, etc. Some things you just have to trust to God to make okay.

AS to the last question, give me ten years or so and I'll try plausible to say.

I love your questions. Thanks for taking the issue seriously.

246 posted on 05/26/2008 10:55:55 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: fwdude
Thank you for posting those questions. Hopefully I can answer them to your satisfaction.

Did Jesus say "this has become my body", "this has become my blood?" How did the "trans" get injected into Scripture? He simply said "is."

Transubstantiation reflects Roman Catholic faith in the literalness of the words of the Bible. To the revealed Word that "my flesh is true food, my blood is true drink" the Church labeled the belief "Transubstantiation."

Is the wafer ever not his body (before the prayer of the priest)?

Yes - as you just said. It is not His Body until an ordained priest says the words of Consecration.

Is Jesus not the same forever. How then can he become what he previously was not? Or how can something that is not God become something that is God?

Roman Catholics take Jesus at His word: the bread is his body; the wine is his blood. From the Apostles at the Last Supper until today, the bread and wine of Eucharist looks and feels and tastes like bread and wine in the eating and drinking.

How does this happen? It is a mystery that we believe based on faith. Jesus said it is so; hence it is as He said.

If the wafer is God in Jesus Christ, and if God never changes, does the wafer again become not God at some point?

No.

Does digestion somehow dissolve the Godness of the wafer?

Goodness? Do you mean the effect? The Eucharist unites us with Jesus. It is estimated that 15 minutes after consumption, the host is completely dissolved but the graces received remain.

Since, as Catholics say, the Body, Soul, and Divinity is contained whole in the wafer, and that His humanity (body) can not be separated from his Godhood, does the wafer just pass through our systems as God? Does God then become fecal matter in the toilet, to be worshiped and adored? (Better not flush!)

See previous comment.

What happens to the leftovers from the Eucharist? Do those pieces not eaten rot and are eventually thrown away? How could God be treated thus?

Hosts, once consecrated, are reserved in a Tabernacle. This is usually within close proximity to the altar. Next to the Tabernacle is a lamp that burns night and day to remind us of His presence. If you enter a Catholic Church in any part of the world, you will always see the Tabernacle with the lamp burning nearby. Many people often seek solace and comfort inside Catholic Churches where they may quietly sit in the presence of Christ.

After a certain amount of time, the unconsumed hosts will deteriorate. At that point, the priest will dissolve them in water. In every Catholic Church, there is a special sink called a sacrarium that is in the Sacristy. The sacrarium is outfitted with a pipe that bypasses the sewer and leads straight into the earth. This sink is kept covered at all times to prevent the possibility of other substances being poured down it as well.

Is saying "I am the bread which comes down from Heaven" the same as saying, "bread is me?" Does the first statement in some way explain the latter?

No. The Eucharist makes the atemporal aphysical actions of Christ's redeeming action truly present to us always and everywhere. This is incarnational.

BTW - Jesus was born in Bethlehem, a word that means "House of Bread". Coincidence? ;-)

332 posted on 05/26/2008 1:57:24 PM PDT by NYer (John 6:51-58)
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