Posted on 05/26/2008 4:50:16 AM PDT by NYer
They fit together perfectly. Extend the bold to all of Matthew 28:20.
The word “cookies” in my post is an allusion to an anti-Catholic cartoon which cannot be mentioned on Free Republic.
If you would like, I would be happy to explain it in a single sentence via Freep Mail.
Naw, I apologize for my ill-fated attempt at humor. I mean’t no harm. I don’t really care what anyone else believes, so long as they afford me the same courtesy. Have a nice holiday and God Bless.
I should have said that Christ IS the Bread of Life.
God bless you too. Be well.
But why pray to Mary or other Saints when we can pray DIRECTLY to The Lord? I pray for family and friends (and Freepers) — I pray asking THE LORD to save them. Mary and the Saints can’t save them. Only through Christ. And we have access to him directly.
So - - why pray to Mary or the Saints? When Christ taught the apostles to pray, he said to...
Pray then like this:
“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Matthew 6:9-13
So... where does He teach to pray to Mary.. or the Saints? He says to pray to the Father. And he teaches that the only way to the Father is through Him.
Praying for the intercession of Mary or the Saints is to pray a meaningless prayer — only God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit hear and answer prayer.
Hoss
Did Jesus say "this has become my body", "this has become my blood?" How did the "trans" get injected into Scripture? He simply said "is."Well, even the Evangelists call it bread (and the cup) first, and then HE says... whatever He actually said. So I think most people would say there was some change, even if only a change in "signification".
As to the something that wasn't God becoming God, isn't that the miracle part?
The God changing part is excellent. I'd say it's tied up with the mind-boggling aspects of the Incarnation.
The next questions are pretty much examined in the Summa. I'm not sure "contained" is right. Is my "Dawgness" "contained" in my body? I don't know.
The humanity of Christ is not identified with his body. Anymore than MY humanity, such as it is, is to be identified with mine. I am more than my body, and Christ's humanity is more than is body. Wouldn't that hve to be right? I can see problems on the horizon, but let's move slowly.
The BIG problem is that moderns don't "get" "substance". WE think in terms of conservation of matter and such and we see a continuity, indeed there IS a continuity, between bread in my hand and subsequent bolus turcking on through the GI tract. But the "substantial" approach is that isn't bread any more. And the "transsubstantial" approach is That whatever it is doesn't have the accidents of bread any more so the local identification of it with Christ is no more. Something like that, anyway
Similarly with rotted bread or vinegared wine. And besides the bread and wine are consumed before they rot, and if a calamity happens great hootin' and hollerin' and stuff is carried out. One old lady bearing a chalice of the Precious Blood took a header off the altar steps. Clean towles, clean bucket, many many rinsings involving pouring the rinsed material not into drainpipes but onto clean grass, etc. Some things you just have to trust to God to make okay.
AS to the last question, give me ten years or so and I'll try plausible to say.
I love your questions. Thanks for taking the issue seriously.
You can always tell when someone is using that handy little anti-Catholic “bible notes” help aid because sometimes they just cut and paste the wrong or just part of the critique.
I know what you mean’t, I was just struck by the immediate need to be a smarty pants and well....my bad.
To piece those two phrases together as one done, one would have to believe that: "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" is identical to "there are also many other things which Jesus did"....I can't see how you can maintain any intellectual honesty and say those two subjects are interchangeable.
You said: only God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit hear..
How do you know? Where in scripture does it say NOBODY else in Heaven can hear prayer? Again, protestants always try to limit what God can do, cause Him to be finite. If God wants to allow saints to hear us He can.
The Catholics have this one right in my humble (Protestant) opinion. They have Scripture on their side, and there’s no use denying it. The little non-denominational church I attend has held to a basically transubstantiationist position for over a century.
Really. Could you point me to these anti-Catholic Bible notes. Funny, I see most Catholic responses as the same old canned responses on every thread. In making my points, I borrow from no one but the Bible.
I hate to tell you, but when one commands someone to do something it is an act (as in He did something...He commanded). The act of commanding is something that “person” did. One of the things Jesus did was command the Apostles to “baptize in the name...etc.” John tells us He did many more things. By extension some of those “dids” would include other things He commanded.
Again, unless you wish to put limits on what God can do with His “dids”.
I think you’re forgetting the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Remember The Great Schism? Approximately from 800-1000 A.D.
YOUR interpretation of the Bible, which is inflenced by the Protestant denomination doctrine you belong to.
How about showing me in scripture where God says that anyone other than he himself DOES hear prayer? In fact, why not revisit Elijah’s contest with the prophets of Baal. Who did Elijah pray to? Adam? Eve? Seth?
Who did Christ pray to in the Garden of Gesthemene? Moses? Abraham? His mother? No. He prayed to God. God answers prayer, no one else. God hears prayer. He doesn’t say, “I and the certain saints hear prayer, “ or, “I and Mary and the saints hear prayer.”
Show me where God says anyone but himself hears prayer and then you can show me also that someone other than God answers prayer. My bet is you won’t find it.
Your comment on Protestants is rather a broad brush and very non-specific. God IS sovereign. God is sovereign according to HIS will. Not Protestant will or Catholic will. So, why assume that God allows saints to hear and answer prayer when He doesn’t say? But, He DOES say that we are to worship HIM alone; to do otherwise is idolatry. And, to me, praying to anyone or anything other than God is practicing idolatry.
Hoss
True, this is more of a literal vs. symbolic debate, unlike doctrine which seems pulled from thin air. I wouldn't fault either position since Jesus so often taught in parables and never expected non-believers to understand.
I was actually being tongue in cheek but as with all humor it has to have an element of truth in it... this is what I was referring to:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/056729241X/defendeofthecath
Constantly see verbatim cuts from that.
It is mostly influenced by what the Word says. Besides, making false acquisitions about where I get my arguments and not even pinging me to the post was a bit rude.
you automatically get pinged when someone replies to you, at least I do
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