Posted on 05/23/2008 8:39:53 AM PDT by annalex
That's a bit odd. Perhaps I've never thought of it before but how could Mary possibly be without original sin as the sin nature is past through the father? That would mean that Mary would had to have been born of a virgin birth, like our Lord. Is that what is taught?
Exactly!
On another note, what you are saying is that Mary was not justified by works or faith. In fact, it appear what you are saying is that God justified Mary. Strange that He doesn't do this for all. ;O)
Mary wouldn't need to be justified since she was sinless.
No, Mary (according to your doctrine) was sinless and didn't need to be Justified (which is having your sins paid for and made holy).
I read that he was justified twice, that word being used in the NT referring to Gen.15 (Rom.4) and Gen.22.(James 2)
Abrahams' faith in God's land/greatness/blessing promise to him is mentioned in Heb.11 as well, referring to Gen.12.
But Abraham is not to be said to be saved until Gen.15:6. with the belief that God would give him a seed.
Amen.
Accepting Christ's Blood Atonement is what makes the difference.
No, the inheritance is reserved in heaven for you, just like Paul states a believer is predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ.
These are not dependent on actions after one is saved, but are set in heaven when is saved
Set your affections on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God' (Col.3:2-3)
When you are saved, God already sees you as in Christ with Him in heaven.
The context of 2Pe.1 is bearing fruit, not salvation (2Pe.1:8)
But that just can't be! Numerous Catholics here have said Trent is no longer in effect....
I said what I meant: Mary was conceived naturally, but her justification at conception, like any justification, was a salvific act of Christ.
obey and keep the word which is the Bible, not man's traditions
The Word is Christ, -- that's Whom Mary kept and obeyed.
She was sinless because she was justified.
One of the classic Old Testament texts on justification is Genesis 15:6. This verse, which figures prominently in Paul's discussion of justification in Romans and Galatians, states that when God gave the promise to Abraham that his descendants would be as the stars of the sky (Gen. 15:5, cf. Rom. 4:18-22) Abraham "believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). 1This passage clearly teaches us that Abraham was justified at the time he believed the promise concerning the number of his descendants.Now, if justification is a once-for-all event, rather than a process, then that means that Abraham could not receive justification either before or after Genesis 15:6. However, Scripture indicates that he did both.
First, the book of Hebrews tells us that "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance, not knowing where he was going." (Hebrews 11:8)
Every Protestant will passionately agree that the subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith—the kind that pleases God and wins his approval (Heb. 11:2, 6)—so we know that Abraham had saving faith according to Hebrews 11.
But when did he have this faith? The passage tells us: Abraham had it "when he was called to go out to the place he would afterward receive." The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4—three chapters before he is justified in 15:6. We therefore know that Abraham was justified well before (in fact, years before) he was justified in Gen. 15:6.
But if Abraham had saving faith back in Genesis 12, then he was justified back in Genesis 12. Yet Paul clearly tells us that he was also justified in Genesis 15. So justification must be more than just a once-for-all event.
But just as Abraham received justification before Genesis 15:6, he also received it afterwards, for the book of James tells us, "Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,' and he was called the friend of God." (James 2:21-23)
James thus tells us "[w]as not our ancestor Abraham justified ... when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" In this instance, the faith which he had displayed in the initial promise of descendants was fulfilled in his actions (see also Heb. 11:17-19), thus bringing to fruition the statement of Genesis 15:6 that he believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
Abraham therefore received justification—that is, a fuller fruition of justification—when he offered Isaac.2 The problem for the once-for-all view is that the offering of Isaac is recorded in Gen. 22:1-18—seven chapters after Gen. 15:6. Therefore, just as Abraham was justified before 15:6 when he left Haran for the promised land, so he was also justified again when he offered Isaac after 15:6.
Therefore, we see that Abraham was justified on at least three different occasions: he was justified in Genesis 12, when he first left Haran and went to the promised land; he was justified in Genesis 15, when he believed the promise concerning his descendants; and he was justified in Genesis 22, when he offered his first promised descendant on the altar.
As a result, justification must be seen, not as a once-for-all event, but as a process which continues throughout the believer's life.
Which scripture says that? It is just your theory -- traditions of men. The scripture said, "make sure your election" in 2 Peter 1, and "God will render to everyone according to his works" in 2 Romans (similar in Apoc. 22:12).
Really? Who?
I don't know about Gamecock's experiences off-hand, but I've personally been told by several Catholic FReepers that (choose one):
a) the anathemas of Trent are no longer in effect,
b) the anathemas of Trent were intended for specific individuals of that era, and that they don't apply to me as a Reformed Protestant in the 21st century,
c) the anathemas of Trent were repealed by Vatican II.
To protect the individuals who said them, I will not name names nor link to their posts. You'll have to accept my word for it that each was posted to me publicly within the last two years. I don't it matters who said them, so much as it matters whether any of them were accurate in their statements.
You will also have to accept that history changes with the whim of the RCC (calling George Orwell!) and that the messenger is more important than the message (contrary to John 12:49). It’s easier to ridicule and denigrate a person than it is to discuss and reason the issues.
Just in case you weren’t aware.
Been there, got the emails to prove it.
Grow not weary in well doing for in due season ye shall reap, if ye faint not.
Faint not, my brother, faint not.
OK, that’s different. I’d be surprised if a Catholic on FR argued that the doctrine of Justification changed since Trent; I have seeen various attempt to explain what the anathemas mean that were less than accurate.
One of the classic Old Testament texts on justification is Genesis 15:6. This verse, which figures prominently in Paul's discussion of justification in Romans and Galatians, states that when God gave the promise to Abraham that his descendants would be as the stars of the sky (Gen. 15:5, cf. Rom. 4:18-22) Abraham "believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). 1This passage clearly teaches us that Abraham was justified at the time he believed the promise concerning the number of his descendants. Now, if justification is a once-for-all event, rather than a process, then that means that Abraham could not receive justification either before or after Genesis 15:6. However, Scripture indicates that he did both.
No, this is one type of Justification, the type that Paul is speaking of, the theological one.
First, the book of Hebrews tells us that "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance, not knowing where he was going." (Hebrews 11:8) Every Protestant will passionately agree that the subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith—the kind that pleases God and wins his approval (Heb. 11:2, 6)—so we know that Abraham had saving faith according to Hebrews 11. But when did he have this faith? The passage tells us: Abraham had it "when he was called to go out to the place he would afterward receive." The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4—three chapters before he is justified in 15:6. We therefore know that Abraham was justified well before (in fact, years before) he was justified in Gen. 15:6.
No, we don't know that, we only know that he obeyed God and called upon God
No different then Cornilus in Acts 10.
It doesn't say Abraham was justified until Gen.15:6.
But if Abraham had saving faith back in Genesis 12, then he was justified back in Genesis 12. Yet Paul clearly tells us that he was also justified in Genesis 15. So justification must be more than just a once-for-all event.
It doesn't say that Abraham had saving faith in Gen.12.
Where does it say that Abraham had saving faith in Gen.12.
He obeyed God and God said He would bless Him.
It wasn't until Gen.15:6 that Abraham received imputed Righteousness for believing what God said about Abraham's seed, which indirectly related to Christ as the Saviour (Gen.3:15)
But just as Abraham received justification before Genesis 15:6, he also received it afterwards, for the book of James tells us, "Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,' and he was called the friend of God." (James 2:21-23)
That Justification (#2) is the justification seen by men.
See the dictionary definition of justification and you will find two definitions.
James thus tells us "[w]as not our ancestor Abraham justified ... when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" In this instance, the faith which he had displayed in the initial promise of descendants was fulfilled in his actions (see also Heb. 11:17-19), thus bringing to fruition the statement of Genesis 15:6 that he believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Abraham therefore received justification—that is, a fuller fruition of justification—when he offered Isaac.2 The problem for the once-for-all view is that the offering of Isaac is recorded in Gen. 22:1-18—seven chapters after Gen. 15:6. Therefore, just as Abraham was justified before 15:6 when he left Haran for the promised land, so he was also justified again when he offered Isaac after 15:6.
The only problem is not being able to read English and a dictionary.
Therefore, we see that Abraham was justified on at least three different occasions: he was justified in Genesis 12, when he first left Haran and went to the promised land; he was justified in Genesis 15, when he believed the promise concerning his descendants; and he was justified in Genesis 22, when he offered his first promised descendant on the altar.
No, because nothing is said about Abraham being justified in Gen.12.
And the other two justifications are of two different types, one theological, done by God and one as proof of the former before men.
Even the NAB note recognizes this distinction.
As a result, justification must be seen, not as a once-for-all event, but as a process which continues throughout the believer's life.
No, what Justification is seen is as one time event theologically.
The justification seen by men is the fruit of the theological justification, showing that one is justified to men.
1. To show to be just, right. 2. theological. to free from blame or guilt. (Websters New World Dictionary).
So, the Bible only speaks of two justifications of Abraham, not three.
And Justification as it relates to salvation is an event, not a process, as even the Douay-Rheims reads in 1Cor.1:18.
James is speaking of Abraham being seen by men as justified.
That was part of his spiritual growth and resulted in him being called a friend of God.
You will also note that God commended his faith which produced the work, not the work (Heb.11:17-19)
This article is nothing but nonsense.
No, she was sinless because she had no Original sin.
Justification has to do with forgiveness for sin.
If she had no Original sin (like Christ) she had nothing to be forgiven for.
You guys don't even know your own theology!
I said what I meant: Mary was conceived naturally, but her justification at conception, like any justification, was a salvific act of Christ.
It would seem that Aquinas had some difficulty with the view that Mary did not obtain Original Sin in the womb.
Secondly, because, since the rational creature alone can be the subject of sin; before the infusion of the rational soul, the offspring conceived is not liable to sin. And thus, in whatever manner the Blessed Virgin would have been sanctified before animation, she could never have incurred the stain of original sin: and thus she would not have needed redemption and salvation which is by Christ, of whom it is written (Matthew 1:21): "He shall save His people from their sins." But this is unfitting, through implying that Christ is not the "Saviour of all men," as He is called (1 Timothy 4:10). It remains, therefore, that the Blessed Virgin was sanctified after animation. Reply to Objection 2. If the soul of the Blessed Virgin had never incurred the stain of original sin, this would be derogatory to the dignity of Christ, by reason of His being the universal Saviour of all. Consequently after Christ, who, as the universal Saviour of all, needed not to be saved, the purity of the Blessed Virgin holds the highest place. For Christ did not contract original sin in any way whatever, but was holy in His very Conception, according to Luke 1:35: "The Holy which shall be born of thee, shall be called the Son of God." But the Blessed Virgin did indeed contract original sin, but was cleansed therefrom before her birth from the womb. http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4027.htm
obey and keep the word which is the Bible, not man's traditions The Word is Christ, -- that's Whom Mary kept and obeyed.
Christ obeyed God words and that is what Mary was to obey as well. (Mat.4:4, Lk.4:4)
...
He obeyed God and God said He would bless Him.
You simply repeat your dogmas. Read the text:
1 Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not. 2 For by this the ancients obtained a testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the world was framed by the word of God; that from invisible things visible things might be made. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice exceeding that of Cain, by which he obtained a testimony that he was just, God giving testimony to his gifts; and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Henoch was translated, that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had testimony that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him. 7 By faith Noe, having received an answer concerning those things which as yet were not seen, moved with fear, framed the ark for the saving of his house, by the which he condemned the world; and was instituted heir of the justice which is by faith. 8 By faith he that is called Abraham, obeyed to go out into a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he abode in the land, dwelling in cottages, with Isaac and Jacob, the co-heirs of the same promise. 10 For he looked for a city that hath foundations; whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith also Sara herself, being barren, received strength to conceive seed, even past the time of age; because she believed that he was faithful who had promised, 12 For which cause there sprung even from one (and him as good as dead) as the stars of heaven in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 All these died according to faith, not having received the promises, but beholding them afar off, and saluting them, and confessing that they are pilgrims and strangers on the earth. 14 For they that say these things, do signify that they seek a country. 15 And truly if they had been mindful of that from whence they came out, they had doubtless time to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is to say, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered Isaac: and he that had received the promises, offered up his only begotten son; 18 (To whom it was said: In Isaac shall thy seed be called.) 19 Accounting that God is able to raise up even from the dead.(Hebrews 11)
Here St. Paul enumerates all three events in the life of Abraham as examples of saving faith: calling Abraham (v. 8, corresponding to Genesis 12:1-4), the promise of descendants (v. 11, corresponding to Geneais 15:6) and finally the sacrifice of Isaac (v 17, corresponding to Genesis 22). All three are listed together as examples of justification. Abel, in the first example in the passage is expressly said as been testified as "just" (v4); then Noah is specifically called "heir of the justice"; all these people are described as having obtained a "heavenly country", and "translated" into eternal life.
James is speaking of Abraham being seen by men as justified
He wasn't. He was seen by God and a ram, and the ram did not live to tell the story. You are just making things up.
If you have a question, I will gladly respond and explain it again.
Aquinas had some difficulty
Yes he did. So?
If you have a question, I will gladly respond and explain it again.
No need to explain what can't be explained!
[ Aquinas had some difficulty]
Yes he did. So?
Catholic theology is never suppose to disagree!
LOL!
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