DR. PUSEY ON THE WORSHIP OF MARY IN THE CHURCH OF ROME

Sword and the Trowel ^ | 1866 | Charles Spurgeon

[Ransomed]

I think that a lot of folks believe that somehow the Catholic Church is all about Mary worship but are at a loss when asked what that entails and how it all works practically. You asked a fair question, I reckon.

Freegards

[markomalley]

I think the RCC doctrines are a product of the enemy. The bible warns about the enemy invading "the body of Christ" not to be confused with RC teaching that it IS the Church. I think these doctrines are the example of "Damnable heresies" mentioned in the bible. It seems that many of the warnings in the bible are aimed at the RCC and many of it's teachings.

Gee, and I thought that all of those statements referred to the vast and damnable heresies brought forth in these latter times.

After all, let's take a look at Scripture:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

1Ti 4:2 through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared,

1Ti 4:3 who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Well, lemme see...the Shakers forbade marriage...well, they sprang up during the latter days...

And, lemme see...the modern Messianic Jew believes in keeping kosher...and that movement sprang up during the 19th Century, as well...

2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress.

2Ti 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3 inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good,

2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

2Ti 3:5 holding the form of religion but denying the power of it. Avoid such people.

2Ti 3:6 For among them are those who make their way into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and swayed by various impulses,

2Ti 3:7 who will listen to anybody and can never arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 3:8 As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith;

2Ti 3:9 but they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

Well, if that isn't a description of the modern tele-evangelical movement, featuring the concept of "prosperity theology," I don't know what it would be.

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings,

2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

Again, sounds like the modern Protestant movement to me. Don't like what this church teaches, go find one that agrees with you. Don't like Southern Baptists, go find American Baptists, or Primative Baptists, or Free Will Baptists, or United Baptists. Don't like the United Presbyterians, find the Orthodox Presbyterians, or the Reformed Presbyterians, or the American Presbyterians. Don't like the Evangelical Lutherans, go find the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, the Lutheran Church Wisconsin Synod, or whatever. Don't like the Church of Christ (Anderson), find the Church of Christ (Cleveland). Or if none of that works, go found your own church and teach it your way. After all, the Holy Spirit speaks to you, and so therefore you couldn't be wrong. Nor could you (pointing at somebody else). Nor you (pointing at yet another person).

Talk about arrogant! Pull the beam out of your OWN eye, FRiend.

[OpusatFR]

“. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.”

“No one is trying to be dishonest. Everyone claims to be hearing the Word of God. But the indisputable fact of the matter is that Lutherans, Presbyterians, sectarians, liberals, conservatives, East Lansingites, East Berliners, Southern Americans, Southern Africans, Indonesians and Ghanians, all read the same Scripture and ALL HEAR DIFFERENT THINGS.”

Robert McAfee Brown (Protestant Scholar)

Thank you very much, but I will listen to the teachings of Christ’s own church speaking through the Magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit since Pentecost and not the promptings of everyone else guided by who knows what.

[Petronski]

WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH
Of the Church

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.

Hmmm.

[OpusatFR]

“Isn’t that odd, since most of your church’s dogmas are EXTRA biblical???”

No they aren’t. Your interpretation of what we quote in Scripture is simply your interpretation.

You say you don’t really follow this or that denomination but read for yourself.

I guess there are now 30,002, (I addded your interpretations to the count) of non-Catholic interpretations ~ahem,~ guided by some spirit, I can’t think that the Holy Spirit is that divisive.

[maryz]

Just out of curiosity, who do you like writing on Scripture?

I'd ask you to name names of Catholic scholars you've read in, but I don't want to be mean either! ;-)

[Iscool]

I was thinking that of all places, an anonymous internet site would be one of the places were the Catholics who admit to their Mary worship would loudly proclaim such worship.

Their church tells them it's not worship...

[OLD REGGIE]

If you want to say "some Catholics worship Mary as a goddess..." I'll agree with you. If you qualify your statement with the word "some," I'll bet that all of the Catholic FReepers will agree with you...no matter what aberrant behavior you choose to attack. But your "elipsis" of "some" is as unacceptable as if I said "Protestants handle snakes." (of course, just implying "some")

Your reply makes sense but it imposes a "burden" on Catholics and Non-Catholics to be more precise in their choice of language. (no easy thing). :)

When Catholics claim "Catholics believe..." they would be required to identify the subset of Catholics included in their claim.

When non-Catholics claim "Catholics practice..." they would also be required to follow the same rules.

I have seen some posts by non-Catholics wherein the claim in all seriousness that all Catholics worship Mary without actually believing they do (the Catholics that is) because of their excessive "veneration" and (I guarantee there are few, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, who are familiar with the term) hyperdulia.

Even in this situation the statement is not logically correct because there are some Catholics who believe very little of what the RCC teaches. You would require a legalistic disclaimer in this situation also. No?

In short, we are in agreement (somewhat). However, don't hold your breath.

In the meanwhile I'll hold to the Jesuitical "mental reservation". There. That should cover it. :)

[Ransomed]

Howdy Iscool.

I wrote:

“I was thinking that of all places, an anonymous internet site would be one of the places were the Catholics who admit to their Mary worship would loudly proclaim such worship.”

As a response to a Freeper who said some Catholics admit to their Mary worship, but these Catholics aren’t on FR.

Do you think all Catholics worship Mary? Do the Catholics who worship Mary know they worship Mary? Why do Catholics who proclaim their worship of Mary get kicked out of the Catholic Church?

Freegards

[OLD REGGIE]

I think you are right about the education level of Freepers. Do you think folks educated about Catholic teaching are more or less likely to realize they worship Mary?

Is this another trap? :)

Those few "experts" in Catholic teaching are not worshipping Mary by their owned specialized understanding of the term.

Whether I believe their excessive "veneration" crosses the line is unimportant. They are not worshipping Mary. Just ask them.

If you are sincerely interested in the subject there are literally thousands of sites on the internet. Exercise your imagination and have at it.

[markomalley]

When Catholics claim "Catholics believe..." they would be required to identify the subset of Catholics included in their claim.

When non-Catholics claim "Catholics practice..." they would also be required to follow the same rules.

For me, I usually say "the Church teaches..." for the very reason that you mention. (Yes, sometimes I slip, but that is my intent)

[OLD REGGIE]

If the practice is so prevalent as you claim, surely there would be evidence from primary sources.

I said "goodbye" to you previously because you didn't accurately recap what I said. You continue this practice.

Goodbye. We have nothing further to discuss on this thread.

[OLD REGGIE]

For me, I usually say "the Church teaches..." for the very reason that you mention. (Yes, sometimes I slip, but that is my intent)

Good practice. I, also, make an attempt to be more precise but I have a better excuse for slipping than you. After all, I am entering my dotage. :)

I do admit when a particularly strident Catholic bellows "CATHOLICS BELIEVE" .................... I am apt to follow with CATHOLICS PRACTICE.............. followed with the practices of some Catholics.

Sadly, my "lesson" is usually misunderstood.

[Ransomed]

HaHaHAH!! You fell into my cunning trap again!! Oh, will you ever learn, OLD REGGIE?! :)

Freegards

[Marysecretary]

Not all churches are spirit filled. Many are not.

[Marysecretary]

P.S. CHURCHES aren’t spirit filled. People IN them are. He fills those who want it.It’s not automatic.

[Marysecretary]

Most protestant churches.

[OpusatFR]

“P.S. CHURCHES aren’t spirit filled. People IN them are. He fills those who want it.It’s not automatic.”

So then there are false chruches, right?

[Marysecretary]

Sure.

[fortheDeclaration]

[I've seen a great many Protestants who seem to revere the Bible far above Jesus Christ and that is worship, or idol worship.]

Really? A "great many?" I've seen FR Catholics make this claim, but I've never seen any evidence for this spurious charge. I can't even imagine what that would look like. Protestants do not kneel to the Bible. Protestants do not pray to the Bible. Protestants do not believe the Bible is a mediator between God and men. Protestants do not believe the Bible morphs from paper into God Himself because "another Christ" says some words over it. OTOH, Protestants believe the Bible is the inspired word of God (and last time I checked, the RCC catechism says the same thing.)

Amen.

I guess because we hold the Bible and not an organization or man, as our final authority, they consider that 'worship'.