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DR. PUSEY ON THE WORSHIP OF MARY IN THE CHURCH OF ROME
Sword and the Trowel ^ | 1866 | Charles Spurgeon

Posted on 05/14/2008 10:16:49 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg

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To: DungeonMaster; Marysecretary; Petronski

You seem to be very confused. Intervening and saving are two TOTALLY different words, especially in this context.


821 posted on 05/16/2008 10:29:17 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: DungeonMaster
I think it's an inexhaustible mystery, utterly incomprehensible in its fullness to human minds. In God's mercy, we can grasp at least the rudiments even in our fallen state.

You seem to think such mysteries are as "simple" as, say, a recipe for quick bread or a simple algebra formula, something that you can actually know completely.

822 posted on 05/16/2008 10:33:48 AM PDT by maryz
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To: maryz

The first step toward removing the mystery from these spiritual matters is to lock each word down to a singular immovable meaning (preferably the one that least fits the context of its use by Catholics in the given context—if two or more singular immovable definitions are necessary to negate a Catholic teaching, well, hey, whatever it takes.


823 posted on 05/16/2008 10:38:15 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: windsorknot

“After 800+ posts it has become evident that no matter how many times and ways Catholics tell others that they don’t worship Mary, it is an exercise in futility to attempt to convince those who insist otherwise. Just love God, Christ, and His mother and practice your faith with pride. I say this as a Protestant who loves my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ.”

Hey, yours might be the best post on the whole thread. It might be futile to argue about whether or not a cat thinks that Catholics worship Mary, but I am interested in how such a cat thinks Catholics worship Mary but don’t know they do, and how Catholics in fact call such worship the gravest sort of sin. I reckon Catholics must be thought of as the shoddiest goddess worshippers ever.

Freegards, great post, God bless


824 posted on 05/16/2008 10:42:11 AM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: OLD REGGIE
Of course not, it is not something the Catholic Church would study or publish. The only "evidence" available are from ex-priests, ex-Catholics, and non-Catholic (some hate sites) sources. The record shows it has been, and is, particularly prevalent in Central and South America.

I want make sure that I understand what you are saying before I comment further. Are you saying that Catholics all know that they are worshipping Mary but that there is a world-wide conspiracy to keep this hidden; that only ex-priests and ex-Catholics are letting the secret out of the bag?

825 posted on 05/16/2008 10:44:42 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petronski; maryz
And don't forget that the Aramaic speaking Jesus would often speak to his Aramaic speaking Disciples in classical Greek, He often did this to confuse them and to mock them.

Additionally, if the Bible doesn't specifically say something happened, then it didn't happen. However, there are some exceptions to this rule. We must ignore the fact that the Bible never talks about Mary having other children, because logic would dictate the Mary and Joseph's sexual yearnings would certainly take precedence over caring for the Son of God.

Also, the Reformers were right about everything EXCEPT what they believed about the Blessed Virgin. They didn't have any problems rewriting Scripture, disobeying the Holy See, in fact they were even willing to risk death. However, they retained their beliefs about the Blessed Mother because they were "too Catholic."

Also, all of the Apostles taught "sola scriptura" even though Scripture HAD NOT yet been written and despite the fact that it would be another FIFTEEN CENTURIES before the average person could even hope to obtain their own Bible.

826 posted on 05/16/2008 10:48:54 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: netmilsmom; Dr. Eckleburg; OLD REGGIE; Gamecock; Lord_Calvinus
some religions feel that they can misrepresent just what it is that they believe for various reasons. For instance Scientology now has a church and a cross, and claims to be a religion. Tom Cruise claims that he is both a Scientologist and a Catholic. Do you personally believe that this is possible?

The Mormons claim to be Christian but an in-depth study of the faith will eventually turn up that it has nothing much in common with mainstream Christian faiths, not the least of which it rejects the OT and the NT in that "they must be interpreted correctly" and are not the scriptures most used by them, but instead they refer to the BOM. Also they believe that Joseph Smith needs a password from everybody after death so that he can stamp their way into heaven.

If a Pesbyterian church really did claim to worship Christ, yet had statues of Calvin, more than lifesize, inside, outside, in every home, and he was offered up prayers, and they claimed that he stands between man and Christ, what would you think?

827 posted on 05/16/2008 10:49:49 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: windsorknot

I hope I don’t give you a bad reputation by agreeing with you (nobody likes me, donchaknow), but that is a lovely sentiment and post. God bless you.


828 posted on 05/16/2008 10:51:48 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petrosius

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829 posted on 05/16/2008 10:52:45 AM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: Religion Moderator; trisham

>>The Mormon Freepers say that the LDS believes such and such. The ex-Mormons say the LDS believes such and such. The never-Mormons say that the LDS believes such and such.<<

Please understand, I’m not being snippy here, I’m genuinely asking.

A Mormon and an ex-Mormon can SAY things. The Mormon gives documentation from the Mormon church and the ex-Mormon does not have documentation, it should stand with the documentation. Otherwise actually it’s slander (or really libel because it is printed).

Here, it’s not Catholics and ex-Catholics (mostly) it’s other denominations. So a Catholic shows Vatican documentation and says this is proof, but another denomination states, here is a group of Catholics that don’t agree. Does that make the splinter group right and the documentation wrong? If it’s not wrong, then it should not be allowed to be “Catholics” but rather “some Catholics”.

If an LDS FReeper states we believe in hell and gives documentation that says it (which I had posted to me on an LDS thread), an ex-LDS stating simply “no you don’t” should not nulify the documentation.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. All of us have been asked for documentation, a link, to something that we have said. When a Vatican document (not a website by Catholics, because that would mean that a DUer can state his interpertation of the consitution without showing proof from the consitution) is given, that should be taken as fact unless another Vatican document is produced to say the contrary. Vatican document, not what the AP or Reuters say the Pope says because we know how they handle conservatives all the way around!

I’m sure that when the LDS FReepers tiff, they show documentation. In fact, from what I saw on one of the threads, many times the ex-LDS ASKED for documentation and didn’t get it. Then no, without proof, it cannot be taken as fact. That is only reasonable.


830 posted on 05/16/2008 10:59:37 AM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Ironmom. (but really made from Gold plated titanium))
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To: 1000 silverlings

>>Tom Cruise claims that he is both a Scientologist and a Catholic. <<

Can you give a link to that? Because....

http://www.google.com/search?q=tom+cruise+Catholic&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

Does not state that Tom says he is Catholic but rather that Both Nicole and Katie (the wives) are Catholic.


831 posted on 05/16/2008 11:02:11 AM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Ironmom. (but really made from Gold plated titanium))
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To: 1000 silverlings
If a Pesbyterian church really did claim to worship Christ

They don't? Is it that they are following the teachings of Calvin?

832 posted on 05/16/2008 11:05:59 AM PDT by Titanites
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To: netmilsmom

I’m sure that when the LDS FReepers tiff, they show documentation. In fact, from what I saw on one of the threads, many times the ex-LDS ASKED for documentation and didn’t get it. Then no, without proof, it cannot be taken as fact. That is only reasonable.

Many times the LDS freeper know what the anti is up too and wishes not to play their game.

I am sure there were times you might have saw the question answered when from a legit inquirer!


833 posted on 05/16/2008 11:06:09 AM PDT by restornu
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To: netmilsmom
"Proofs" are not required for posting on this forum. If they were, the atheists - who demand empirical proof that God exists - would be high-fiving each other for shutting down most all theistic posts.

Posters are free to testify as to what they believe, their experiences, doctrines, traditions, dogmas, history, etc. as long as they stay within the guidelines for the type of thread.

834 posted on 05/16/2008 11:07:09 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: 1000 silverlings

Well, since Tom Cruise is lying, so is the Catholic Church.

Riiiight.


835 posted on 05/16/2008 11:09:01 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: netmilsmom; Religion Moderator
Then no, without proof, it cannot be taken as fact. That is only reasonable.

Amen sister!

Speaking for myself here, (and I have no intention of undermining your dialog with the RM, I'm interested to see how it will play out), I'm perfectly content to let any post I make that's done with source material stand on its own, as, when I make posts, I'm not only speaking to the person I'm posting to, but I also consider any lurker out there.

I have confidence in the ability of the lurker to be reasonable. IOW, I'm not so concerned with "getting the last word in" (not that you are either, I'm just saying it for the record), because, like you said, if one has sources to back one's claim up and another doesn't, it doesn't really matter, to a reasonable person, who gets the last word. There can be 1,000 posts after a reasonable post, but if none of them actually respond to the original reasonable one, then it's just further evidence to any reasonable lurker that the "other side" doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Take my latest post discussing the "worship of Mary", for example. I'm still waiting to see if anyone responds to it, but if they don't, and just keep posting the same claim over and over again ("Catholics worship Mary, therefore they are idolatrous"), then any reasonable lurker isn't going to be convinced of their position, no matter how many times they say it.

836 posted on 05/16/2008 11:10:27 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: 1000 silverlings
some religions feel that they can misrepresent just what it is that they believe for various reasons. For instance Scientology now has a church and a cross, and claims to be a religion. Tom Cruise claims that he is both a Scientologist and a Catholic. Do you personally believe that this is possible?

"Some" religions? You only give an example of scientology, which claims to be a religion, but doesn't meet the standards generally accepted to mark a religion. I can't imagine what they think they're doing with cross (and I don't think I want to know). I doubt that it's possible to be a scientologist and a Catholic at the same time, unless you have a truly bizarre understanding of one or both, but there's no proposition so nuts that someone won't claim to accept it.

The Mormons claim to be Christian but an in-depth study of the faith will eventually turn up that it has nothing much in common with mainstream Christian faiths, not the least of which it rejects the OT and the NT in that "they must be interpreted correctly" and are not the scriptures most used by them, but instead they refer to the BOM. Also they believe that Joseph Smith needs a password from everybody after death so that he can stamp their way into heaven.

What kind of example is this? It seems to me they just define "Christian" differently from the way the major Christian religions do. Are they making a secret of what they actually believe -- seems to me they're quite open about it.

If a Pesbyterian church really did claim to worship Christ, yet had statues of Calvin, more than lifesize, inside, outside, in every home, and he was offered up prayers, and they claimed that he stands between man and Christ, what would you think?

I would think that they considered Calvin a saint, someone to be honored and respected as especially close to God. Or do you mean if they had statues only of Calvin and addressed all their prayers to Calvin and maybe had some kind of communion service ("Do this in memory of Calvin"?) -- because you don't mention any other aspect of this hypothetical church -- In that case, I would think they were very strange indeed.

837 posted on 05/16/2008 11:11:26 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Ransomed
I have seen stats that say most Catholics think that birth control is harmless and in keeping with Church teaching. How come there hasn’t been a decree that agrees with this thinking? Why did the Catholic Church teach unkowing Mary worship when it would have been easier to just come out with Mary worship?

Beats me, but they certainly do teach people things about Mary that produce worship, in some.

—"So, then, it is taught in authorized books, that 'it is morally impossible for those to be saved who neglect the devotion to the Blessed Virgin;' that 'it is the will of God that all graces should pass through her hands;' that 'no creature obtained any grace from God, save according to the dispensation of His holy Mother;'

838 posted on 05/16/2008 11:16:32 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Obamafeld, "A CAMPAIGN ABOUT NOTHING".)
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To: FourtySeven
Post 781... I appreciate you taking the time to type and post such a lengthy explantion

I'm sure the wise guys didn't go around the countryside hunting down babies that would one day be the King of any given race, or religion...

I imagine they KNEW that the Messiah was prophesied in the OT and they knew THIS King was the one the world was waiting for...

This was no ordinary King...And they knew it...I don't think they were just showing respect and honor to a king...They were worshipping and bowing to THE King...

839 posted on 05/16/2008 11:18:38 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: maryz
I think it's an inexhaustible mystery, utterly incomprehensible in its fullness to human minds. In God's mercy, we can grasp at least the rudiments even in our fallen state. You seem to think such mysteries are as "simple" as, say, a recipe for quick bread or a simple algebra formula, something that you can actually know completely.

What God has clarified, call not a mystery.

840 posted on 05/16/2008 11:18:52 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Obamafeld, "A CAMPAIGN ABOUT NOTHING".)
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