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To: sevenbak

Joh 10:25-30 MKJV
(25) Jesus answered them, I told you and you did not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
(26) But you did not believe because you are not of My sheep. As I said to you,
(27) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
(28) And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
(29) My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand.
(30) I and the Father are one!

Joh 5:17-18 MKJV
(17) But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
(18) Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.

Joh 14:9-11 MKJV
(9) Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?
(10) Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
(11) Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.

1Ti 3:16 MKJV
(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

Tit 2:11-15 MKJV
(11) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
(12) teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world,
(13) looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
(14) who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and purify to Himself a special people, zealous of good works.
(15) Speak these things, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.


344 posted on 05/09/2008 7:04:25 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
None of those speak to anyone being one in substance. They are one, just like He told the Apostles to be one. Further, there are several references to them being 2 distinct personages, but one in purpose and Godhead.

A good example in the Bible which distinguishes the different physical natures of the Father and Son can be found in Acts chapter 7. Stephen, the first Christian martyr, having told the Jews they had crucified their Messiah, was stoned to death. However, before he died he had a marvelous vision.

"He, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." (Acts 7:55-56,Eph 1:20)

It's pretty clear. Stephen saw God the Father and Jesus standing at his Father's right hand. This scripture contradicts the doctrine of the Creeds, for they are not one substance. Several other scriptures prove this as well. Matthew 3:16-17, for example, describes the Savior's baptism:

"Jesus, when he was baptized, went straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Here again the Bible mentions three separate beings--God the Father, who's voice came down from heaven, Jesus the son, who was in the water, and the Holy Ghost which descended upon him as a dove would. Jesus also spoke profound truths to Mary:

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

Here Jesus clearly delineates that they are separate. What is the difference between them and the holy Ghost? Well the Bible is also explicit in that the Holy Ghost cannot be considered Jesus or the Father in any fashion at all other than purpose. In John 16:13-14 we read: ":

When he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whosoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and show it unto you."

Here the Holy Ghost is said to glorify the Son only and not of himself, neither will he speak of himself. John 14:26 tells us that this spirit of truth is indeed the Holy Ghost. And in John 16:7-8:

"It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment."

It is understandable how many will choose to "stay put" with what is considered traditional doctrine as the Trinity, but what concerns me is that disagreeing with others about the Trinity isn't usually enough. Many Trinitarians nowadays believe that those who do not accept this doctrine that God is three in one in some paradoxal way, should in no way be considered Christian by themselves or anyone else. Most scholars and theologians admit that the trinity cannot be explained and dismiss arguments of it solely on the basis that God is mysterious as are his ways. We however choose to believe that the Bible is clear in telling us that however mysterious God's ways are, his His relationship with Christ and the Holy Ghost is a simple doctrine, as is the doctrine that we are saved through his Son Jesus Christ, thus the Trinity does not dictate who is and who is not Christian in any form.

353 posted on 05/09/2008 7:21:42 AM PDT by sevenbak (1 Corinthians 2:14)
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