Replies

U Said: My point in this discussion is that we have been instructed by Jesus not to base our faith upon a sign, but upon the truth which we find in the Word of God.

But without his spirit it is impossible to know what is the word of God. "To him that hath ears to hear let him hear" was not just a cute phrase, There are some parts of the Bible that cannot be understood without that spirit. I dare say there are other inspired writings that did not make it into the Bible. Only with the Spirit of God can men discern as they have been commanded to do and ask and receive answers from him.

Historic Christianity has always taught that the Holy Spirit is key in the understanding of the scriptures. Jesus, Himself, makes it clear that this is the case ...
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
A I have said, christians throughout the years have depended upon the ministry of the Holy Spirit in their lives to illustrate and understand the scriptures for them.

All I am asking people to do is ask, it's Biblical ...

But you speak as though christians have not been asking God for His wisdom and understanding down through the ages. Christians were praying for God's wisdom long before Joseph Smith came on the scene ... and they continue to do so.

What you speak of is asking for a particular sign from the Holy Spirit. In this you resemble the Pentecostals, who insist that believers must experience the expression of the Holy Spirit in the particular sign of 'speaking in tongues' ... to validate their spiritual experience.

U Said: My point in this discussion is that we have been instructed by Jesus not to base our faith upon a sign, but upon the truth which we find in the Word of God.

I Said: But without his spirit it is impossible to know what is the word of God. "To him that hath ears to hear let him hear" was not just a cute phrase, There are some parts of the Bible that cannot be understood without that spirit. I dare say there are other inspired writings that did not make it into the Bible. Only with the Spirit of God can men discern as they have been commanded to do and ask and receive answers from him.

U Said later: Historic Christianity has always taught that the Holy Spirit is key in the understanding of the scriptures. Jesus, Himself, makes it clear that this is the case ...

I am not trying to score some cheap theological points here, I really want to understand your answer, so I am cutting this out from the whole rest of the post.

I am also not going to quote scriptures at you here because I want to know what you think, not what you can quote.

It sounds to me like you are saying two contradictory things, and I would appreciate clarification.

To me an answer from God through the holy spirit is not a "Sign" in the sense of "seeking for a sign", Those tend to be spectacular, heal someone, or feed thousands with five loaves, or something big and external to the one seeking the sign. You seem to be saying that asking to know if a book that claims to be of God is indeed his word is seeking for a sign.

At the same time that you are saying that, you say that you have the Holy Spirit to Guide, comfort and open the scriptures to you.

It seems to me that you can't reasonably occupy the position that there are no revelations from God, no testimony of his truths (scriptures), and at same time say the Holy Spirit guides and comforts you every day. Please explain how you can hold both positions.

U Said: But you speak as though christians have not been asking God for His wisdom and understanding down through the ages. Christians were praying for God's wisdom long before Joseph Smith came on the scene ... and they continue to do so.

I am sure that there have been many righteous and good people who have spent much time on their knees in supplication to their lord Jesus Christ, before Joseph Smith, there were also many Before Jesus Christ, the plan of salvation is god's plan and is therefore perfect. God has a plan to allow all to be judged fairly not just those who were born after Jesus, and not just those born after Joseph smith, without going into details here because that would be off topic the LDS church has specific teachings about that that I would be happy to cover whenever anyone wants to know what we believe (but I'm not going to spam you with it.)

As to Joseph Smith, The lord Chooses people for reasons that are beyond our understanding, I doubt if the people of Jesus' time thought a bunch of fishermen, a tax collector and a religious zealot bent on persecuting his church were particularly good choices for spokesmen for that church. I could go on, but I would rather state that while we revere Joseph Smith as the one chosen by God to be his prophet, we do not think he was perfect, nor do we think he was better than other men or theologians of his day, he was chosen by God and that's it we don't get a vote.

U Said: What you speak of is asking for a particular sign from the Holy Spirit. In this you resemble the Pentecostals, who insist that believers must experience the expression of the Holy Spirit in the particular sign of 'speaking in tongues' ... to validate their spiritual experience.

I have never said there was a specific sign that was valid and all other signs are invalid, in fact, if you read my recent posts, I have specifically stated that God's answers are perfect and different for everyone for every one is different.

I agree with you that the "speaking in Tongues" as the only "test" of spirituality is strange. I have had the Gift of Tongues, I learned to speak Chinese by the Gift of Tongues, one of the hardest languages on earth for an English speaker to learn, and in four months I was so fluent that over the phone people thought I was Chinese. I have had the experience of having people ask me a question that I did not know all the words to answer, and I opened my mouth, and said the words I knew and additional words came out of my mouth. When the meeting was over, I went and looked up the words I had spoken and they were perfect, and my vocabulary increased each time.

To this day, I can still speak Chinese effortlessly and it's been twenty years, this is not "normal" This is the gift of tongues at work, and no not every one has to have it to have a testimony, I obtained this gift of God not because of some exceptional worthiness on my part, far from it, but because I accepted a call to teach in Taiwan, and I have no natural ability with languages. When God calls a person to a job he makes that person equal to that job, even if he has to give them a gift they did not have before accepting that calling to do it.

Sorry for the segway, I do not insist on a single type of answer, and I don't know any Mormons who do.