[Godzilla]

This is precisely why we need a second witness, one is too easy to misinterpret. I understand the frustration you have that since you only have the Bible it's difficult to actually know what it's testifying of, the Bible itself says "Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." and you have only one witness, the Bible.

If you are claiming the bom to be that second witness, then it first stands and falls upon the credibility of the writer – Joseph Smith – how well would his word stand up in a court of law. Not too well as a convicted treasure seeker/scam artist from his NY days to a perjuring witness denying that he was wed to multiple women while in reality he was married to at least 9. His First Vision stories are contradictory. His translation of the Book of Breathing papyrus has been shown to be bogus. He claimed to have started translating the Kinderhook plates – which were shown to be fraud by both the perpetrators as well as modern metals testing. And while we are talking credibility, still waiting for those great archaeological discoveries to be headlined in every major anthropological and archaeological publication documenting where the bom cities are in N. America. Your Three Witnesses were all excommunicated and denounced by Smith as liars. Most of the remaining 8 witnesses left the LDS within a short period too.

Being contextually challenged too, the immediate contextual setting for 2Cor 13 is that Paul quoting this passage from Deuteronomy 19:15, and quotes it in reference to his coming visit. Either the two or three witnesses are Paul’s three visits, or the testimony of his associates. But the point of the quotation is to remind the Corinthian Christians that he comes this time as a judge. He has enough evidence to write, “If I come again I will not spare.” Sadly (for DU), this has nothing to do with the supposed witness of the bom.

Have you heard of The Johannine Comma?

Red herring – the understanding about it has been out longer than you have been alive. How about the thousands of changes to the bom? Which Bible is it that's complete, the Catholic, or the Protestant one?

Mormons would say the Protestant one, since by doctrine mormons do not accept the apocrypha – more obfuscation. However, more to the point is why aren’t mormons using the Joseph Smith Translation and discarding the KJV, since the JST was fixed by Smith via revelation.

Why isn't the book of Enoch (quoted by in all the Gospels and by Jesus himself in the Bible? (it's in the dead sea scrolls as part of the scriptures)

Psssssst. Those alleged quotes came from the section of 1 Enoch called the Similitudes. Subtle hint – Similitudes are not present at the dss site. More subtle hint - most scholars believe they were written well after the time of Christ. But that doesn’t matter either since Enoch was never considered scripture by the Jews or Christians. But then that should not be a problem for the church with a living seer and prophet – those books could be added to the lds canon at any time.

Why are there so many different Bibles, new ones being added seemingly every day? (Somebody thinks they need a new version interpreted their way...)

Yes, more ways to express the richness of the greek and Hebrew in a way understandable to todays society. But why hasn’t the mormon church canonized the JST since that was the inspired cure all for the KJV translation???????

So is it denigration to point out the truth? (anti's keep claiming that is all they are doing, you can't have it both ways...)

What is denigrating? Only your poorly researched presentation in an attempt to discredit the bible to the eyes of Christians (but then you don’t participate in that).

God did Tell of a coming falling away... 2 Thes. 2: 1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I have asked mormons this with no answer - who is the son of perdition – he should be revealed and recognized for all to see? Name him. Has Christ returned? Biblical key word study of the term day of Christ or similar indicates the end of times. Have we been in the end of times since????????

More tripe and mis application of 1 John.

The anti Mormons what to they typically do when faced with this?

Since you have identified me as an anti in the past, you are broad brushing here. Reading these, you seem to make my points. Never the less, as a challenge to the bible the claims of the bom must also be examined as the Bereans examined Paul’s testimony. They weren’t condemned for it as you condemn us. The bom calls for people to pray about it. So lets see about these excuses

Try to explain why the Book of Mormon can't be true.

Lets just say that the overwhelming evidence (and the lack of the proof) shows that there was no Nephi civilization in the new world during the periods of time claimed by the bom. Further, studies have shown the native Americans to be Mongolian descent – not Jewish by multiple physical, and dna related methods. The story is false and only a false spirit would convince otherwise

Impugn the name of dead men in an attempt to make Mormons look weird.

One doesn’t have to work hard at all, they did a pretty good job of doing it all by themselves. BTW, being dead does not infer credibility to these dead people one bit, their credibility is still open to evaluation and challenge. But then that’s what they pay FARMS for.

Testify that they didn't receive an answer.

Bottom line here is that DU is calling all of you who received an resounding NO, are liars in an effort to mute our testimony, as he had done with me in the past to others without the honor to ping me on his comments.

Lie about our doctrine

Much time here has been given to present mormon doctrine – even from non-canon sources (which heaven forbid an anti would try to do). Your problem is that we just won’t let you do you spin job on the exposed truth.

Misquote our leaders

As one Freeper P-marlo showed, Young taught the Adam-God doctrine by being allowed to cite the entire sermon. Problem is that you complain when we put down too much context.

Tell people that Satan will answer their prayers.

He tricked Peter : Mt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

And in 2 Cor 11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

And if Satan can trick Adam and Eve in the garden, his MO is still the same today. If Satan can’t disguise a false answer to prayer, the apostles spent a lot of ink warning us about it and Satan is pretty much a failure.

Try to tell people we and the FLDS are the same church (we're not in case anyone wondered).

Oh, modern history. No, FLDS is what officially LDS was through the mid 1890’s and in some circumstances as late as 1910 and without the repeal of Section 132, could well be again.

anything but encourage people to pray about the Book of Mormon.

That is because we have already received our spiritual message and the Spirit says NO. And I will stand with the many former mormons here who have realized the same and come out. Now how valid are DUs final observations?

Anti's place Logic above revelation.

Nope, Paul said to prove all things. We further believe that the Bible is all the revelation we need.

Anti's will say bad things about someone when they aren't around to defend themselves.

Again, a remark about Smith, et al inability to defend themselves or their teachings. So sad, but the pay FARMS to pick up the slack.

Anti's believe they can receive revelation for you (even when they tell you revelation has ceased)

This is laughable and fluffy – I have yet to see an anti here make this claim in that context.

Anti's think Lurkers are stupid.

On the contrary, speaking for myself (though I suspect it is shared by other antis) the lurkers are very smart and the responses to the right handed typing posts by mormons here make the point very well. Secondly, I would not be going into the detail I do if I considered the readers to be stupid. What they may think about mormon theology and apologia is another matter.

Anti's think Lurkers won't read the responses, and Can't use Google.

Again, see previous line, people here are FR are very literate.

Anti's don't believe God answers prayers to him.

Just a little earlier DU posted a statement saying that we lie about mormon doctrine. Kettle meet pot.

Anti's think Catholics and protestants are the same church (hey, it's the same logic splits in religion = same religion...)

I will rejoice with my Catholic brothers and sisters in heaven in that we are both catholic, members of the saved throughout the ages (DU fails to understand the difference in the uses and application of the term ecclesia, but we love him anyway) and we will both be amaze at what we will find out then. But what DU fails to realize is that denominations do not equal separate religions, but different ways of interpreting and applying the faith we share. This faith cannot be shared in the same way with mormons because their theology is completely incompatable with Christianity. This enormous mormon hose job of the past few days has made this clear.

Anti's don't think Lurkers can get a prayer right

Doesn’t everyone just LOVE the way DU is able to leap to such conclusions and do it with a straight type font. Unremarkably, one will look far and wide to prove this.

[DelphiUser]

U Said: If you are claiming the bom to be that second witness, then it first stands and falls upon the credibility of the writer – Joseph Smith

See, right there you assert some thing that is not so, it's credibility comes from God or not at all, If Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, it'd already be in the dustbin of history, but here we are discussing it still...

(you go on to slander a good man, but it's wasted breath because you premise is flawed, right along with your "facts" on Joseph Smith. I hope men are kinder to your memory then you have been to Joseph's

U Said: Being contextually challenged too

Actually, i got the Context, thanks, and it's exactly what I mean, God will continue to come to us with his word, not stop inexplicably to do what he has done for all time and close his mouth and not speak nor reveal his truth. The bible has unfulfilled prophecies that speak of prophets... which means there should still be some.

I Said: Have you heard of The Johannine Comma?

U Said: Red herring – the understanding about it has been out longer than you have been alive.

Yeah, it is agreed by Scholars that this addition to the Bible gives one of the places that was used in the defining the Doctrine of the trinity that God and Jesus are the same being, it's a typo? (or copy'o) Yeah the Clintonian that's old news, we've known about that major flaw in the Bible for longer than you've been alive, so it's still inerrant. LOL!

U Said: How about the thousands of changes to the bom?

Like the changes tot eh bible, Addition of verses, chapters foot notes and spelling corrections? yes the Book of Mormon has had similar changes, then there are the corrections Joseph made to the manuscripts, which the printer ignored, and the word white which was changed to pure because usage has changed, is that all you've got?

I Said: Which Bible is it that's complete, the Catholic, or the Protestant one?

U Said: Mormons would say the Protestant one, since by doctrine Mormons do not accept the apocrypha – more obfuscation. However, more to the point is why aren’t Mormons using the Joseph Smith Translation and discarding the KJV, since the JST was fixed by Smith via revelation.

First, you are the ones saying the Bible is complete an inerrant, since there are so many versions it's only logical to ask which one is since they disagree with each other sometimes.

As to the JST, Emma retained ownership of the manuscript, and gave it to what is now the community of Christ Church, they won't give or sell the rights, so we are stuck with excerpts which are in the KJV as printed by the LDS church.

U Said: Psssssst. Those alleged quotes came from the section of 1 Enoch called the Similitudes. Subtle hint – Similitudes are not present at the dss site.

The Book of Enoch uncovered in the dead sea scrolls was not complete, that is true, so? many of the books of scripture recovered are not complete, until parts of the Book of Enoch were found there these same "Scholars" were insisting that the whole thing was written later, they were wrong.

U Said: More subtle hint - most scholars believe they were written well after the time of Christ. But that doesn’t matter either since Enoch was never considered scripture by the Jews or Christians.

As to Enoch being considered scripture, so Jesus Quoted from it, the apostles quoted from it, all of Christendom used it until it was not Canonized in Jamnia and even then it's use took hundreds of years to die out, we have it now largely because the Copts continued to use it into modern times (and still do) but hey one blanket quote from Godzilla and nope, it was never used by anybody (the evidence disagrees with you, so who to believe, you or my lying eyes...)

U Said: But then that should not be a problem for the church with a living seer and prophet – those books could be added to the lds canon at any time.

You are right about one thing, it's not a problem for us, we know how to recognize truth. I Said: So is it denigration to point out the truth? (anti's keep claiming that is all they are doing, you can't have it both ways...)

U Said: What is denigrating? Only your poorly researched presentation in an attempt to discredit the bible to the eyes of Christians (but then you don’t participate in that).

In case you were not paying attention, in the post I was responding to, I was specifically called out as one who disrespect the Bible. I hold the Bible in very high esteem, it is the word of God. I also recognize that it's not perfect. Others are insisting that it is, OK, let them back that assertion up when they attack me for not agreeing with them.

Go back and look, I did not bring this up, it was brought up by one of yours.

U Said: I have asked Mormons this with no answer - who is the son of perdition – he should be revealed and recognized for all to see? Name him. Has Christ returned? Biblical key word study of the term day of Christ or similar indicates the end of times. Have we been in the end of times since????????

Your time scale is not God's time scale, the falling away happened the the Son of perdition would be revealed, that does not mean immediately. Jesus died that all might be saved, that does not mean immediately, some of us are still down here screwing up (I mean me, no attack should be inferred here).

I have answered this question to you before... perhaps you forgot.

U Said: More tripe and mis application of 1 John.

Please explain how this is a misapplication, really, I'd like to know what you think here.

U Said: Since you have identified me as an anti in the past, you are broad brushing here.

Hey, I made it multiple choice, pick the whine that matches your shine...

I Said: Try to explain why the Book of Mormon can't be true.

U Said: Lets just say that the overwhelming evidence (and the lack of the proof) shows that there was no Nephi civilization in the new world during the periods of time claimed by the bom. Further, studies have shown the native Americans to be Mongolian descent – not Jewish by multiple physical, and dna related methods. The story is false and only a false spirit would convince otherwise

LOL! Oh beautifully done, you stepped right into the center of the bear trap NONE OF WHAT YOU SAID IS TRUE. There are plenty of "Mystery" civilizations in the Americas, and there is plenty of evidence for (Do you really want me to list them Again? If I do you'll just claim the evidence is flawed and there fore there isn't any. or you'll fall back on "peer reviewed" and say anything not published by sources outside the churches is inadmissible (which is a ridiculous standard, let's apply it to say Christianity as a whole...) The DNA study that was so flawed the guys who actually did the research won't talk about it, only laymen who don't understand what was wrong do. The Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon, the Jewish and Other Semitic Texts Written in Egyptian Characters, (can you say reformed Egyptian which was a tough sell until other records started to show up that way...), then there's The Paleo Hebrew written on a boulder in Los Lunas Arizona, The The Bat Creek stone with the ten commandments written in Hebrew, there is the Discovery that if you follow the directions given in the Book of Mormon, you find all the unusual landmarks described in it for the middle east, including Naholm and Bountiful

You will dismiss these one by one and insist that there is no evidence, of course not for there is no man so blind as those who will not see.

I Said: Impugn the name of dead men in an attempt to make Mormons look weird.

U Said: One doesn’t have to work hard at all, they did a pretty good job of doing it all by themselves. BTW, being dead does not infer credibility to these dead people one bit, their credibility is still open to evaluation and challenge. But then that’s what they pay FARMS for.

Actually, with the amount of effort that's been put into it you've come up with a surprisingly small amount of stuff. I mean the Treasure hunter stuff still gets play even though it's known to all come from the Salamander letter forged by Mark Hofmann, hey it says what you want it to say, keep using the discredited thing, make people point out that it was a forgery every time, challenge them to prove a negative, that's the ticket!

IMHO it's pathetic to pick on a man who was marytered for his faith, and make up stuff about him. pathetic.

I Said: Misquote our leaders

U Said: As one Freeper P-marlo showed, Young taught the Adam-God doctrine by being allowed to cite the entire sermon. Problem is that you complain when we put down too much context.

The Adam God theory was a Theory that was indeed talked about by Brigham young, I understand the theory, but it has never been the Doctrine of the church, so? It's not the only thing you guys misquote, come on the JOD is full of non cannoned theories by lots of prominent Mormons, you can do better then the AGT

I Said: Tell people that Satan will answer their prayers.

U Said: He tricked Peter : Mt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

And in 2 Cor 11: 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

And if Satan can trick Adam and Eve in the garden, his MO is still the same today. If Satan can’t disguise a false answer to prayer, the apostles spent a lot of ink warning us about it and Satan is pretty much a failure.

I see nothing in the scriptures you quote about Satan answering a prayer to God. Indeed he came to Adam and eve, but he did that on his own and not in answer to a prayer. Indeed he can be very deceitful, but not in answer to a prayer, in fact prayer is the only sure defense against Satan's power, I would that all men would pray to God unceasingly that they might have his influence in their lives and not that of the TV.

2 Ne. 32: 8

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

I Said: Try to tell people we and the FLDS are the same church (we're not in case anyone wondered).

U Said: Oh, modern history. No, FLDS is what officially LDS was through the mid 1890’s and in some circumstances as late as 1910 and without the repeal of Section 132, could well be again.

I suppose the Protestant were not too long ago Catholics and with the repudiation of some small differences could be again...

But they are not now, nor are Mormons and the FLDS the same church, and you again don't look good claiming to be a man of God and bending the truth. God never lies, those who follow him shouldn't either.

I Said: anything but encourage people to pray about the Book of Mormon.

U Said: That is because we have already received our spiritual message and the Spirit says NO. And I will stand with the many former Mormons here who have realized the same and come out.

So you would deny others the right to get an answer? Do you claim you can receive an answer for them? If you truly believe that they will receive a "NO" answer, then you should be saying fine, great, go read it, call us when God laughs when you ask if it's his, instead you guys get all stirred up and mad when I challenge people to read it, Why? The only logical reason is you are worried that people will get an answer and will know you have lied to them about us. (it's just logic...)

U Said: Now how valid are DUs final observations?

Dead on.

I Said: Anti's place Logic above revelation.

U Said: Nope, Paul said to prove all things. We further believe that the Bible is all the revelation we need.

Hence the discouragement of prayer...

I Said: Anti's will say bad things about someone when they aren't around to defend themselves.

U Said: Again, a remark about Smith, et al inability to defend themselves or their teachings. So sad, but the pay FARMS to pick up the slack.

LOL, I think you have a Joseph Smith Fetish, i was thinking of Brigham young, but hey there are lots of dead guys to chose from and Anti's don't seem to be picky...

I Said: Anti's believe they can receive revelation for you (even when they tell you revelation has ceased)

U Said: This is laughable and fluffy – I have yet to see an anti here make this claim in that context.

From earlier in your post "That is because we have already received our spiritual message and the Spirit says NO." you say it's never done right after doing it... One of us is fluffy all right, but it's not me.

I Said: Anti's think Lurkers are stupid.

U Said: On the contrary, speaking for myself (though I suspect it is shared by other antis) the lurkers are very smart and the responses to the right handed typing posts by mormons here make the point very well. Secondly, I would not be going into the detail I do if I considered the readers to be stupid. What they may think about mormon theology and apologia is another matter.

Detail? Verbosity is not detail, Detail is not accurate, I have read some very writings that had not a lick of truth in them, detail does not make truth, just detail. on the other hand i testify that I have received a witness direct from God and you denigrate it with "detail".

I Said: Anti's think Lurkers won't read the responses, and Can't use Google.

U Said: Again, see previous line, people here are FR are very literate.

Yet you blithely stated that "FARMS has been on the LDS payroll since its inception." (Post # 941) When a quick Google proves that to be an utter falsehood, if you thought they were going to catch you, you wouldn't be so cavalier with the truth.

I Said: Anti's don't believe God answers prayers to him.

U Said: Just a little earlier DU posted a statement saying that we lie about Mormon doctrine. Kettle meet pot.

I didn't say that all anti's believe that, but some sure do, I can point you to some posts where anti's told me exactly that when talking about Joseph's first vision, but I'm sure you could find them yourself if you wanted to (Google).

I Said: Anti's think Catholics and protestants are the same church (hey, it's the same logic splits in religion = same religion...)

U Said: I will rejoice with my Catholic brothers and sisters in heaven in that we are both catholic, members of the saved throughout the ages (DU fails to understand the difference in the uses and application of the term ecclesia, but we love him anyway) and we will both be amaze at what we will find out then. But what DU fails to realize is that denominations do not equal separate religions, but different ways of interpreting and applying the faith we share. This faith cannot be shared in the same way with Mormons because their theology is completely incompatible with Christianity. This enormous Mormon hose job of the past few days has made this clear.

Mormon theology is Christianty, if your beliefs are incompatible with Christinty, repent.

I Said: Anti's don't think Lurkers can get a prayer right.

U Said: Doesn’t everyone just LOVE the way DU is able to leap to such conclusions and do it with a straight type font.

I'm laughing on the inside...

U Said: Unremarkably, one will look far and wide to prove this.

Actually, it's not hard at all, in this very thread you said "That is because we have already received our spiritual message and the Spirit says NO." that quote was in response to me saying that anti's would do anything but encourage people to pray. Thus you either don't believe that is the answer they will get (which you protested is not so) or you think they are too dumb to get a prayer right and get the correct answer from God, take your pick.

Lurkers, Godzilla is a paid Theologian, he is paid to represent his church, I am an amateur, I get nothing for my service here. I come here only for one reason for the testimony of Jesus, and the Glory of God. The lord knows I have had no end of hassling for being a Mormon who will not knuckle under even when I have tons of posters coming at me with all manner of tactics. I testify to you that I know the Book of Mormon is true, I know Jesus lives I received this knowledge direct from God, both testimonies at the Same time, just as First John 4:1-3 promised they would if the message was of God. If you want to know as I know, then ignore all this banter here, and Put the Book of Mormon to "The Test"

Why would I post this publicly? Because I know what God's answer is to the question you will ask, that's why. There is no other reason for me to post this. think about it, then Forget Godzilla, he might be lying, for get me, I might be a prevaricator of the first order, ask God, he will never lie to you and will ever answer a petition from an honest seeker.

God bless you all.